Fidesz communication went astray. Total chaos and confusion

One of the headlines I encountered this morning, which appeared in 444, declared that the Orbán government’s anti-migrant propaganda, on which Fidesz’s whole election campaign rests, is “in tatters.” The embarrassment that began with Assistant Undersecretary Kristóf Altusz’s admission that in the last year 1,292 people received either refugee or subsidiary protection status has proved to be a major source of discomfort for the Orbán government, which swore that not one refugee will ever be admitted inside the borders of Hungary. It insisted that Hungary will remain “migrant free” and its culture unadulterated by an alien religion and a foreign culture. And now the hot topic of conversation is the number of refugees who have been more less settled by the ferociously anti-migrant government. That is bad enough in itself, but that all this was done in secret while the Orbán government spent billions on anti-migrant posters and conducted one of the most virulent hate campaigns was more than even some Fidesz supporters could swallow.

The government wasn’t expecting the upheaval that followed the discovery of the Altusz interview with The Times of Malta because these numbers were available on the website of the Immigration and Asylum Office, which I can recommend visiting. After seeing the smiling faces of black girls and boys, an attractive Muslim girl in traditional garb, a lovely young Chinese couple with a cute baby, one gets the impression that Hungary is a welcoming paradise for immigrants. But although all that information was readily available amid the incredible anti-immigrant noise the government created, few people bothered to check the statistics. I was among the few who called attention to the steady stream of refugees arriving in my November 2017 post “Beware, the refugees are coming!”

So, the information was there, but the vast majority of Hungarians believed that the Orbán government actually meant it when it said that no “illegal migrant” will ever reach Hungarian soil and, if they do, they will be immediately returned to wherever they came from. By now, most Hungarians are convinced that all migrants are dangerous and that they should be avoided at all costs. It was within this artificially created atmosphere that they learned that what the government had told them was merely empty propaganda. “Migrants” are coming and most likely will be coming in the future as well.

The government has to devise some clever way to change the communication adopted in 2015, to explain somehow to the folks in Őcsény that those “migrants” whom they refused to accept in their village for a weekend are actually the “guests” of the Orbán government. One of the tricks the Orbán government used to mislead the population was to conflate refugees and economic migrants. In the last few days government spokesmen are talking more about the Geneva Convention and Hungary’s obligation to give refugees shelter, but concurrently with this softer tone the hate campaign against the European Union’s refugee policy and those NGOs that allegedly support illegal migrants continues.

Still, confusion reigns regarding the direction of the “migrant” propaganda. According to Sándor Pintér, George Soros doesn’t support illegal migration. A day later, however, Viktor Orbán said in his Friday morning interview on Kossuth Rádió that “George Soros can decide what to do: he will cease to organize and support illegal migration.”

While the government is struggling to come up with a coherent, believable explanation of its refugee policy, more details are emerging about the sizable financial assistance that joint EU-government sources have given to NGOs that belong to the “Soros network” and whose activities are closely tied to assisting arriving refugees. A few days ago Szilárd Németh, defending his decision to ban LMP’s co-chair Bernadett Szél from attending certain sessions of the parliamentary committee on national security, found her guilty of working at one point for Menedék (“Asylum” in Hungarian), an organization dealing with migrant issues. But it turned out that the same Menedék received substantial grants from the Hungarian government and the European Commission’s Asylum, Migration and Integration Fund (AMIF), so it is hard to argue that Szél’s short employment there in 2002 constitutes a seditious act. All told, since 2015 Menedék has received at least 150 million forints for projects like “Let’s Cooperate!” and “Welcoming kindergartens and schools.” AMIF provides 75% of the assistance, but the rest comes straight from the Hungarian government.

“I’m teaching Hungarian to refugees from Somalia” / Source: Párbeszéd Háza

 

Soon enough Magyar Nemzet found another NGO, “ Wheel of Fortune” (Jövőkerék), which had received millions of forints over the last few years for its work with newly arrived refugees. Earlier, the same NGO had received $48,000 from George Soros’s Open Society Foundation. The Hungarian branch of the United Nation’s International Migration Organization won three grants amounting to more than 100 million forints. The largest amount of money went to the Immigration and Asylum Office for projects like “We are all different,” “The beginning of a new life,” and “Travels along a long road.”

The latest piece of news on the “migrant” front came from Brussels and was reported today. The European Parliament, including the majority of the Fidesz MEPs, voted for a document that contained a request to the European Commission to facilitate cooperation with NGOs to ensure the human rights of refugees, especially those of defenseless women and girls. The text of the document, which is available on the website of the European Parliament, contains two crucial points. First, it calls on the Commission to work together with civil society and human rights organizations to ensure that the human rights of refugees and displaced persons in reception centers are upheld, particularly with respect to vulnerable women and girls. And second, it recognizes the possibilities for the integration of climate change mitigation and adaptation and women’s economic empowerment goals, particularly in developing countries; calls on the Commission and the Member States to explore in relevant projects and mechanisms, such as the UN’s Reducing Emissions from Deforestation (UN-REDD) program, how women could be offered paid employment opportunities to carry out the environmental services that they currently provide on a voluntary basis, for example reforestation, afforestation of cleared land, and the conservation of natural resources.

Whether the Fidesz MEPs knew exactly what they signed is hard to say. George Schöpflin admitted that he didn’t know what he voted for; he simply followed the instructions of Lívia Járóka, the newly appointed vice-president of the European Union. Járóka, who is of partly Roma origin, seems to be more sensitive to refugee issues than her comrades in Fidesz. Earlier I called attention to an interview she gave to Magyar Idők in which she refused to engage in any anti-migrant talk. Instead, she emphasized the necessity of integration. As she put it, “we would like it if they [the refugees] would understand that we find it important that, after a rapid and effective integration, armed with European knowledge, they would be able to return to their own homelands.” This was a new voice, which I duly noted at the time. In any case, Járóka managed to get the majority of Fidesz MEPs to vote for a document which, at least on the level of government communication, is not part of the Orbán government’s agenda.

Where Orbán is planning to go from here is hard to tell. The opposition parties collected enough signatures to force László Kövér, president of the parliament, to convene a special session of parliament on the issue of the “secret” admission of refugees to the country. Kövér cleverly set January 30th as the date, thereby saving Viktor Orbán from the embarrassment of being forced to attend. That day he will be meeting with Sebastian Kurz, the new chancellor of Austria.

January 24, 2018
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Guest

Funny in a way, but logic has never been the strong point of Fidesz. I wonder what O will tell prime minister Kurz on his visit. Maybe even the truth:
Everything you read on those billboards is just propaganda for our bunko paraszts …
In reality we just do what we’re told!

Observer
Guest

To put things in scale: according to the article, it was estimated that the operation of each block will cost the consumers $ 730 million /year.
Whatever that means (in the arcane Russian pricing system) it’s big money they lose even with the low Russian cost levels.

Ferenc
Guest

“In Russia the handover of two new nuclear power plants is postponed because the power is too expensive”
news brought by 444 and sourced from Russian daily “Kommersant”, meaning “The Businessman”, mostly devoted to politics and business.
source: https://444.hu/2018/01/25/oroszorszagban-elhalasztjak-ket-uj-atomeromu-atadasat-mert-tul-draga-lenne-miattuk-az-aram

Observer
Guest

Hope the Austrians will save Hungary from a financial disaster, even if led by a different motive.

Webber
Guest
Webber
Guest

When it comes to Kurz, Orban has a much, much bigger problem than refugees – the Austrian government has started legal proceedings in Brussels to stop the Paks project.

Ferenc
Guest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRObn2unBpQ
Already commented this yesterday, just repeat it here as perfectly visualizing the subject of Eva’s post
Brilliant video by 444.hu, everybody with even a little understanding of Hungarian should watch this!!
In it are some things which everybody living in Hungary or interested in Hungarian matters MUST have seen and heard with her/his own very eyes and ears!!
…and highly recommended to 444.hu to provide subtitles in English und Deutsch…

exTor
Guest

comment image

Thanx for the link, Ferenc.

I notice that 444 has more than 47-million views for all of its YouTube videos, which means that it has effectively reached a certain antiOrbán demographic, although many of that viewer total are proOrbán.

Regardless, the numbers are good to see.

MAGYARKOZÓ

bimbi
Guest

ORBÁN CAVES IN TO THE EUROPEAN UNION!
1292 MIGRANTS ADMITTED TO HUNGARY.

Astute and lying politician-as-usual or a psychotic? The Orbán hate campaign that has engulfed Hungary for months surely cannot alone be the product of yet another desperate but clever pre-election strategy. Orbán lies through his teeth with his anti-immigrant filth and every one of his pathetic Fidesz MPs march in lock-step behind him.

Robots led by a psychotic. Can none of them sense the danger yet?

Observer
Guest

What a mess! It takes idiots or severely damaged souls to swallow this, but not to worry, we have a lots of these in Hun.

Getting serious I have to point out to some grave political/legal issues here. A person has the right to be stupid, to express incompatible opinions, blow hot and cold air at once from the same hole (Hun saying), and also blow his/her money on some nonsensical action. The state, on the other hand, or anyone spending public money doesn’t have this latitude, the state and all such bodies are strictly accountable, hence the huge gov spending on anti-migration and particularly anti Soros campaigns are highly questionable and illegal, respectively.
Whether these actions constitute mismanagement of public funds (hűtlen kezelés), misappropriation or else I can’t say with limited info and knowledge of the legal details, but the tens of billions blown away are a huge gap to fill.
Similarly the newly concocted “stop Soros” bills are in irreconcilable contradiction with the current legislation and the actions of the Gov, no rule of law system can accommodate both, but this is not an insurmountable obstacle in non rule of law regimes.
These would make interesting posts.

Jean P
Guest

OT
The former president of Brazil Lula da Silva was sentenced to 12 years in prison for corruption worth $455.000.

What would be Orban’s propotional sentence for corruption?

Jean P
Guest
Member

The title of your article is accurate, communication has gone astray. I am confused about one thing: If, as the author quoted above, Orbán said that he would allow no illegal immigrants, then I’m wondering if these particular immigrants were legal or illegal.

Observer
Guest

Julia GS
From these mountains of lies, money waste/embezzlement, hatred mongering and law/international agreements breaking this is the one little thing you are “confused about” ?! What about the reeking rest?
Pleeeeeease!

Observer
Guest

Julia SG
You did NOT address any of the severe problems of Hungary: the half way accomplished dictatorship, the total institutional corruption, the economic stagnation, the worst health stats in EU, etc. etc. after all you ” couldn’t care less about Soros and Szél Bernadett and Mészáros Lőrinc, etc. ”

MIGRATION IS NOT a problem in Hu, full-stop – e.g. out of the estimated over 200 000 migrants who passed through Hu before in 2014/15 nobody remained here, even now it is a couple of dozens who stayed here.

Repeating the idiotic propaganda panels of the regime is not welcome here.

Member

Apparently there are approximately 1294 immigrants who arrived last year alone, perhaps temporarily – we don’t know yet. The migrant crisis is a problem because there’s talk of invoking article 7 against Hungary for its stance, Hungary’s reputation is in the crossfire, people are taking sides all over Europe, and because the tears this issue has wrought in the fabric of Hungarian society are manifest.

I specifically said I was only addressing the migration issue. I don’t believe you’ll find opinions from me about other aspects of Orbán’s government except maybe some discussion of economic data, which somewhat altered my views (meaning I learned some valuable things and acknowledge some valid points that I had not previously known or considered).

I do not understand why so many people on this forum stringly oppose the fact that I articulate alternate views on the subject of migration, and chide me for focusing on that one topic.

Observer
Guest

Julia SG
Wrong again, the migrant offensive was initiated by the Orban regime only in the summer of 2015, while it had been going on for years (see Tapancs stats here).
The attacks against the NGOs started in 2014 and the destruction of the Hun democracy in 2011.

If you are not interested in any of the crucial issues for Hu why are you here?

Observer
Guest

Julia GS
Ok, If you FOCUS on a single non-issue while ignoring the crucial ones for Hu why are you here?
Happy now?
You are “attacked” for “shamelessly” hijacking the blog with long posts full of gov propaganda panels supported by just as much evidence, i.e. nil.
Tip: do your homework before commenting here, you may also ask genuine questions.
(I won’t let go – I hate thieves and fascists and just a bit less those who support them)

Observer
Guest

If one day the evidence supports your statement, but currently it rather points to the opposite.

Member

Then I could still be on your good side, Observer, because I am none of the above.

Member
This is ridiculous and you are aggressive. I am well aware of when and how the current migrant crisis started. I was merely pointing out SOME factors – not all of them – to defend my view that the migrant issue IS a problem here. The fact that I did not mention the origins of the current crisis does not mean that I don’t know when and how it started, nor that I am ‘wrong’ as you so joyously, but erroneously, pointed out. On this forum I am either attacked for writing too much, or – if I opt for brevity and cite just a few points – then I receive a primitive attack like this one. I was criticized for ‘verbosity’, then for not being willing to wander into other topics – which would actually be more writing. Virtually no one here has made me comfortable discussing anything. So what would make me comfortable engaging other topics? If I were to support a position Orbán has taken, you would accuse me of trolling and propagandism. If I were to oppose one, you would accuse me of faking disagreement so I can “continue to troll”, just like I was accused… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

I like to add to Eva’s comment:
2016.October was held a referendum in Hungary on request of the Hungarian government about that vetting procedure.
A typical slogan (of total six) used on big blue billboards all over the country by OV&Co was:
“Brussels wants about a city* of illegal immigrants to settle in Hungary.”
*being the fewer than 1,300 persons to be vetted

My conclusion: proof of anti-democratic behavior of current HU government (trying to engrave lies into the people’s heads)

Member
Observer I addressed ‘the freeking rest’ in my newest post above. I am looking strategically at the long-term for all of Europe and even the world. This is careening towards catastrophe, so I wonder why people are focused on comparing the possilble differences in the possible interpretations of 10 politicians from different parts of the Hungarian government, instead of discussing potentially viable solutions to the MASSIVE problem that set this whole thing reeling, namely, millions of immigrants currently in, en route to, or embarking for Europe in the coming years. That is a gargantuan problem, and the current policies of the EU cannot possible match its force. That is what worries me. I couldn’t care less about Soros and Szél Bernadett and Mészáros Lőrinc, etc. I care about Hungary, Hungarians, Europe, European integrity, and our long-term ability to help others around the world. Full stop. On this site I learn a tremendous amount about many, many things. But I almost never see construtive discussion of how to solve the immigration problem. Accepting more immigrants definitely won’t solve it. For instance, why can’t the EU offer temporary protection to those who arrive, vet them VERY carefully, accept some who seem the… Read more »
Ferenc
Guest

“I addressed ‘the freeking rest’ in my newest post”
a comment is a reaction on e.g.a blog, a post is a main writing on a blog, SO where’s your blog?
suggested name: juliabouthungary.hu

Member

Incidentally, the above idea (last paragraph) assumes that resources currently spent on refugee camps and temporary housing, then processing and distributing immigrants and the social services and other costs associated with their integration – would largely be SHIFTED to the endeavors I described. And in the scenario I propose, no EU member would be forced to accept anyone. Countries could decide how they want to allot their funds. But the EU cannot demand a blank check from member states, where the amount changes from year to year and the amount is defined by how many people make it to Europe’s borders alive (many die in transit, and many, many others are diverted to human slavery by ember csempészek).

Marty
Guest

Julia, mass politics isn’t really about legal niceties as you yourself know.

Orban has been orchestrating an unprecedented propaganda campaign of hatred against any and all kinds of “foreigners”. The cost of this campaign last year was some 60bn (USD 200m) which is an astonishing amount.

The question of whether such migrants were or are still illegal or legal (just by virtue of allowing them to enter Hungarian soil) isn’t really relevant to the public.

Orban’s unequivocal promise was that he would under no circumstances let in “any brown-skinned rapists who would then bear children in Hungary which children when grown up would cut our heads off”.

It turns out Orban did let in some brown-skinned people. That’s a problem for some people, it seems, because they are now afraid to go out lest the “black cannibals eat them alive”. [facebook groups have absolutely insane conversations which are generated by this migrant propaganda]

Member

Wow, I have not lived here long and apparently missed the above quote. Where can I find it please? If he said that, it would be disappointing. That is why I thoroughly read sites from all over the spectrum, so I can find out things I would not come upon if I only ran in one circle. This would be such a thing.

Observer
Guest

Marty
You are wrong that “cannot legally prove that he [Orban] contributed to those most abhorrent laws”
Under the Hu system the PM elected by Parliament (BL Art.1.2.f) forms his cabinet so he’s responsible for all actions of the gov. including for the bills tabled by the gov.

Observer
Guest

Marty
Yes, 1/3 of all bills are private bills and the responsibility is with the signatory and the MPs voting, which doesn’t mean they are exculpated.
However the Orban Mafia is very much exposed to corruption charges where they can be easily nailed (in a rule of low country).
There is a legal way to remove Polt; there are other ones we can borrow from the Fidesz toolbox. It’s all a matter of political will.

Marty
Guest

I was talking about responsibility for voting for an act that was known to cause damages to the nation and did cause damage to the nation.

Paks 2 is just one example, then there was the act which legalized the issuance of immigration bonds on which offshore companies made 30% commission which allowed fideszniks to make a cleat 100bn forints of ‘legal’ profits, but there are many such laws. The common theme is that Orban was always somehow missing (I think he did not even vote for the Basic Law, the new constitution).

Even though it would be extremely novel to hold MPs responsible for laws they voted for cleverly Orban doesn’t want to run even that remote risk.

Criminal prosecution for corrupt dealings under normal, already existing criminal statues of course is a possibility but for that you need (i) clear, admissible and convincing evidence (not just journalistic articles or coincidences) and (ii) a diligent prosecution.

Guest

This is kind of silly – if ever there should be a kind of trial there would be enough evidence to send everyone of the Fidesz honchos to jail for life – crimes against humanity comes to mind …
Or all those corrupt deals, just a small percentage would be enough!
You don’t need to look at every illiberal law for this.
PS and a bit OT:
But your description of why the laws are presented that way is nice and proves that Fidesz is not a democratic party!
I’ve known aboiut this and in discussions often used to compare this with the standard procedure for new laws in Germany – which takes at least several weeks of discussions.
My German friends were usually speechless …
Now they understand what “illiberal democracy” means!

Marty
Guest
First, most of the important bills in Hungary (I would think all of the important ones) are actually proposed by individual MPs and not by the government (and then Orban as MP is missing on the voting day). Secondly, the act of proposing a bill legally means nothing. The MP’s debate and vote on it, not the government. It’s their decison. The MPs could amend or reject the proposal if they didn’t like it, but certainly by voting on it the MPs take ownership of the proposal. Mind you this is an extreme, totally theoretic, remote argumentation (of course Orban has to prepare for any eventuality as good lawyers do) as nobody has ever been prosecuted for any potential liability based on participating in a Parliamentary decision. Even more extreme would be the idea that (criminal) liability could attach to the person who only took part in the preparation of a proposal when exercising his/her constitutional right. Unfortunately the Parliament is completely free to cause any and all kinds of damage to Hungary. Rest assured that Orban is clean with respect to making and enforcing laws. People like to underestimate his legal skills, but believe me, he’s and his people… Read more »
Guest

Re:
bills … proposed by individual MPs and not by the government
Why is that?
Because these bills can be pushed through in a day or two without any chance for discussion and/or checking for consistency so the opposition is helpless!
That’s one of the reasons why so many Fidesz bills/laws are contradictory …

My favourite saying:
A new law every day keeps sanity away!

Marty
Guest

If the government proposes the bill then by law must be circulated, negotiated with stakeoholders etc. It takes time, the text could leak and there might be pressure to amend the bill, and adversaries would have time to prepare. Better to do it as a private bill (which are usually prepared by fideszniks law firms but often still overseen by people in the ministries) which can be pushed through literally in a day.

Marty
Guest

The quotes are from Orbanist fanatics who interpret the words of their leaders. For example in Hungary if you say “liberal with beards” (even just liberal) this means Jew and people get it (FYI Jews are not especially liked in Hungary). You know, communication is a tricky thing. Orban made the promise because this is what the people believed even if he didn’t utter “I promise”.

I will tell you a secret if you are new to Hungary. Orban is almost always missing from the Parliament when the most controversial laws are passed. He knows that one cannot legally prove that he contributed to those most abhorrent laws (often causing direct damage to Hungary like the law on the – secret – agreement re Paks 2). After all, he is only the head of the government (the executive) and the Parliament (a separate branch) enacts statutes. If he is missing he cannot possibly be liable, can he. True story.

I don’t know you are as naive as you imply by your comments but you’d better wake up as this is Eastern Europe not the suburbs of Peiora, OH full of righteous god-fearing white Protestants.

Member

Alert: JGS sounds like either a troll or a dilettante busybody. Don’t her/him/it monopolize the discourse. (There are also tell-tale signs of Hungarisms in the English errors of the postings by this “not lived here long” interloper that there is some dissembling going on here. What better person to resolve the alleged “Fidesz confusion” than a neutral foreign observer…)

Member

As I have said elsewhere, I am not a troll and have no government affiliation whatsoever, period. I am not sure what a “dilettante busybody” is, but I feel it’s unkindness.

I have not lived here very long, relatively speaking, but have spoken Hungarian for a very long time, and obviously follow things closely.

I am amazed that so many of you are in an echo chamber and won’t soberly respond to points of an argument. The very fact that I have a different view on some of this is disturbing to some of you, as though only people who hold an identical view can engage in a discussion here? That is called an echo chamber, Mr. Harnad.

Member
So, do I understand from your explanation above that Orbán did NOT say this: “Orban’s unequivocal promise was that he would under no circumstances let in “any brown-skinned rapists who would then bear children in Hungary which children when grown up would cut our heads off”. If he didn’t, it seems irresponsible to leave it out there like that because the casual reader would read it as a direct quote from Orbán. I discovered no contextual clues in your article that would offset that impression. Your subsequent posts seems to argue that Orbáns overall tone and actions as a leader have nudge (or hearded) people in that direction, so their holding such beliefs is attributable to Orbán even though he never said it. I would find this argument easy to deconstruct, but can’t spend much time on it right now. The most obvious counter-argument is that if Orbán’s statements and leadership style could cause people to hold such a deranged belief as you described, then all or most people who had been exposed to his rhetoric would hold that deranged belief, which they do not. Orbán cannot CAUSE someone to believe something grotesque and ludicrous, especially not when we have… Read more »
Member

All I said is that I just recently moved here, as in transferred my permanent residence.

I know quite a bit more than you would think, Marty. And have for a very long time. Touché(e)

Istvan
Guest
The European Commission related legislation that Orban’s team members voted for was in my opinion a fig leaf, in the pejorative metaphorical sense, cover for the scandals involving EU funded refugee detention centers where women and children have been scooped up by sex trade marketers and sold into slavery as have been extensively reported in the media. I believe these EU parliament members were told this type of legislation was necessary to allow for the continuation of the refugee interdiction program in the Mediterranean Sea and in Niger. Clearly Fidesz supports the fortress Europe concept. There is some evidence that both the Green faction and some of the social democrats were using the horrible news stories about EU funded programs to push for a more humane policy than the current interdiction practices. I believe that this to a degree explains the vote, but the average Fidesz supporter and elected official has no comprehension of the realpolitik of these thorny issues. So they appear intellectually defenseless to defend the vote. The actual cooperation with NGOs will largely be meaningless as the fortress Europe strategy will continue in my opinion, because in the long run Europe does not need additional human labor… Read more »
wrfree
Guest

I do hope the ‘settled’ refugees know what they are getting into. Outside the few empathetic Magyars they meet they, because of the continuing hate mongering by the regime and those who should know better, will for the quite forseeable future be ‘seen and not heard’. They will always be the tainted ‘guests’ of the nation.

Hopefully, they can find a way in their new environment. It will be difficult considering attitudes to guests as the latter will have to be able to handle the hate being directed against them. Personally I got an idea what it was to feel a ‘guest’. At times you could cut the air to feel the contempt in particular situations. But that was nothing compared to what the refugees will face. The country has certainly never been on the list for hospitality awards.

Member

I would like to restate my question posted earlier: are these specific immigrants here illegally. I am speaking to exactly one point of the above article, twice iterated:

“the vast majority of Hungarians believed that the Orbán government actually meant it when it said that no “illegal migrant” will ever reach Hungarian soil”

AND

“but concurrently with this softer tone the hate campaign against the European Union’s refugee policy and those NGOs that allegedly support illegal migrants continues.”

I am just wondering if these particular immigrants, the 1,292 coptic Christians, are here legally or illegally.

Member

See errata posted below on Coptics.

Zoli
Guest

I don’t see why it would be an embarrassment to Orban or Fidesz. It is clearly meant to try to appease the ethno cultural suicide cult in charge of the EU. That more than anything shows just how perverse Western society has become. Furthermore, it is false to claim that Hungary ever said that it would never grant asylum to anyone. It did reject the mandatory colonization quotas, which are about as ethical as Beijing’s policy in Tibet.

Ferenc
Guest

“mandatory colonization quotas, which are about as ethical as Beijing’s policy in Tibet”
Don’t misuse nor insult the original inhbitants of Tibet, best really support them (against the Chinese)

tappanch
Guest

year quarter asylum ; status granted
requests; refugee+protected+”befogadott”

2013. 1: 2 322; 26 + 45 + 3
2: 9 419; 47 + 54 + 1
3: 4 404; 54 + 40 + 0
4: 2 755; 71 + 78 + 0

2014. 1: 2 736; 45 + 51 + 5
2: 2 699; 95 + 42 + 1
3: 8 711; 58 + 44 + 1
4: 28 631; 42 + 99 + 0

2015. 1: 33 549; 29 + 96 + 3
2: 33 239; 44 + 68 + 0
3: 109 175; 35 + 73 + 1
4: 1 172; 38 + 119 +2

2016. 1: 7 182; 39 + 109 +4
2: 15 309; 48 + 56 + 2
3: 4 386; 40 + 67 + 1
4: 2 555; 27 + 39 + 0

2017. 1: 1 290; 19 + 53 + 7
2: 689; 27 + 222 +4
3: 746; 29 + 455 +62

tappanch
Guest

In the last 4 quarters (2016.10.01 to 2017.09.30)

asylum applications: 5280

refugee status granted: 102
protected status granted: 735
“befogadott” [translation?] status granted: 73

tappanch
Guest

Full year, 2016 [2015]

refugee status granted :
total: 154 [146]
Afghan 28 [25] 18.2% [17.1%]
Somali 17 [18] 11.0% [12.3%]
Iranian 16 [15] 10.4% [10.3%]
Iraqi 12 [6] 7.8% [4.1%]
Syrian 8 [19] 5.2% [13.0%]

protected status granted:
total: 271 [356]

Syrian 84 [140] 31.0% [39.2%]
Afghan 69 [65] 25.5% [18.3%]
Somali 18 [49] 6.6% [13.8%]
Iraqi 60 [40] 22.1% [11.2%]

See tab 11 in
http://www.bmbah.hu/images/statisztikak/170126%20OIN%20Annual%20Statistics%202016.xls

tappanch
Guest

First 11 months of the year 2017 [2016]

refugee status granted = 95 [139]
protected status granted = 980 [259]
authorized to stay = 73 [7]

total : 1148 [405]

http://www.bmbah.hu/images/statisztikak/171214%20IAO%20Statistics%202017%20November.xls

tappanch
Guest

vocabulary:

menekült = refugee
oltalmazott = subsidiarily protected
befogadott = authorised to stay

tappanch
Guest

also befogadott = temporarily protected

tappanch
Guest

Member States’ Support to Emergency Relocation Mechanism
(from Italy and Greece)

as of 2018.01.24:

Total relocated to EU members:
10018 from Italy
20428 from Greece

A. Zero migrants/asylum seekers relocated to the following countries:

Denmark
United Kingdom
(they opted for independent immigration policy
before they joined the EU)

Hungary
Poland
(they did not join with this proviso in 2004)

B. very few relocations
Czechia (12)
Slovakia (16)
Austria (29)
Bulgaria (60)
Croatia (82)

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/press-material/docs/state_of_play_-_relocation_en.pdf

tappanch
Guest

See arrivals in Greece:

2014: 41038
2015: 856723
2016: 173450
2017: 29718

The tap was opened and closed by Orban’s fellow dictator Erdogan in April of 2015 and 2016, respectively.

Sea arrivals in Italy:

2014: 170100
2015: 153842
2016: 181436
2017: 119369

This is a steady flow from Africa facilitated by the “failed” state [=permanent civil war] of Libya

Sea arrivals in Spain:

2014: 4632
2015: 5283
2016: 8162
2017: 22103

The jet skis are getting better and better to cross the strait of Gibraltar.

tappanch
Guest

Correction for Spain.
The numbers are the sum of the land arrivals in Ceuta and Melilla AND the sea arrivals

Member
Again, on the specific issue of these approx. 1,300 migrants who received protected status, I do not see an inconsistency because all along the government’s campaign has been against three things: 1) forced quotas that assign unvetted immigrants. 2) porous borders in other border (per Schengen) that neither vet adequately nor distinguish between asylees and economic refugees, and 3) allowing massive numbers of immigrants into Europe with no upper limit. As far as I can tell, the protected status granted to these immigrants is outside those three principles, and does not violate them. As far as I know, those who were allowed in were not forcibly assigned to us from a camp without vetting, but were independently selected and vetted by the government. If, as Vona says, the inviduals allowed into Hungary committed numerous, serious crimes, that would moreover support the government’s position that immigrants pose a significant secuirty threat and can be societally disruptive. In this case, even after an attempted vetting that was surely more rigorous than that practiced by Italy and Greece, for instance, some non-law abiding individuals still slipped through the cracks. If Vona’s information is accurate, it would highlight the difficulty of proper vetting and… Read more »
Guest

Julia, the uncritical copying of this hilarious and obviously fake news (debunked a long time ago!) makes you appear as a TROLL!
NGOs give free telephones to immigrants is a nice example and social assistnace given to an immigrant family in France after just three moths (sic!) is outright lunatic!
If not then you seem to be really stupid, copying this nonsense – and that makes your “reasoning” totally invalid!

So in any case one should ignore you – I have the feeling that you are getting paid for the idiocies you’re spouting!
Yours is a bit more clever than the Zolis and Joes here but still it’s nonsensical ranting essentially. Starting relatively normal but then changing into full time conspirational mode!
PS:
We have snopes.com for debunking and especially for European fake news mimikama.at – a very good site (but in German).
And anything like the crazyness youcomplained about you should have checked beforehand.

Member

Re: first link

It had been several months since I watched this so I could not recall which nationality he had referenced. He gives the example of a Bulgarian who gets the 800 EU pension after only three months in France, without ever having paid into the pot. There is a movement in France to prevent this and other benefits for workers from other parts of the EU.

I looked more and found the second link today. It explains in detail that someone from outside the EU, such as an immigrant, would have to live there for ten years, working or otherwise, before receiving that same pension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj73PBtk7M8

http://blog.seniorenforme.com/800e-par-mois-pour-un-retraite-etranger-nayant-jamais-travaille-et-cotise-en-france-info-ou-intox/

Ferenc
Guest

“Bulgarian who gets the 800 EU pension after only three months in France, without ever having paid into the pot”
Where have I heard similar before, let me think?
Yeah, got it, in HUNGARY…
Ukranians registering with 50 or 100 together at one (that’s 1) address just over the border in a Hungarian village and receiving HU pension [without ever having paid into the pot], then from that pension they seem to be obliged to pay a “fee” to certain people/authorities (in EU language that’s called CORRUPTION) and even allowed to vote in the Hungarian elections (in EU language that’s called BUYING votes)…
Guess which party they’re supposed/asked to vote for…
Have I read/heard one letter from you about this, Julia???

Guest

TROLL – again:
This is Hungarian Spectrum and not trolls-bashing-the EU-with silly-fake-news!

Next you’ll be telling us about chemtrails which the EU uses to dumb down the populace? 🙂

Member

Error message:

Despite the huge amount of news I read and watch, I just now came across the actual breakdown for the immigrants allowed in, and it appears they are not from Egypt.

While I disagree with some or most on this site about certain issues, I obviously care about these issues a great deal and would not spend so much time and effort if I did not want accurate information. Thus, I appreciate having factual inaccuracy brought to my attention.

On the occasions when I myself have brought factual errors or inaccuracies to the attention of another writer, I take particular care to make sure not to disgrace the person. After all, we are swimming in data and news bombarded with stimulus from every direction. Who can be expected to have read everything and remembered it all? I think we all make a good effort here, so I try to honor that.

If I determine that an individual is not acting in good faith, or is abjectly disrespectful, then there is no discussion to be had.

Cheers.

Guest

This is really funny coming from someone who spouts so much fake news – either without thinking or (what I ‘ve come to believe …) deliberately!

tappanch
Guest

Asylum applications in Hungary in the first 11 months of 2017: 3187

Afghan: 42.33%
Iraqi: 23.28%
Syrian: 17.38%
Pakistani: 4.86%
Iranian: 2.95%
Algerian 1.95%
Turkish: 0.88%

Member

Thank you, good data.

Farkas
Guest
I think that Hungary simply adopted the Australian approach to refugee intake from the Third World, without however Australia’s understated approach to the issue. Here in Australia an illegal refugee is by definition a queue jumper who attempts to force his or her way into the country, often by paying out a small fortune to people smugglers in order to by-pass the orderly processing system in place for Third World refugees, where however quotas apply, however generous. Third World, because from other parts of the world – or, for that matter, in the case of intending regular immigrants from the Third World – the issue is simply that of immigration, whether for economic or life-style reasons. And of course strictly enforced quotas apply in the case of normal immigration too. In adopting a similar approach, the Hungarian government has however way overdone its “freedom fighter” and “barbarians at the door” shtick, whipping up the already preexisting enormous levels of xenophobia and antisemitism in the country into a frenzy, in the hope of turning it all into significant electoral advantage, but then getting seriously tangled up in its own inept, confused and self-contradictory rhetoric about the issue. Hungarians have never been… Read more »
Member

Farkas, What do you recommend instead? I am genuinely curiously. In fact, I heard that the HU government is, too. Supposedly they have asked for open comments on what to do about the migrant issue, but I haven’t been able to find the e-mail address. Will post here if I find.

Farkas
Guest

I think that my post above carries ample implications of what I would recommend. No need to further belabour the issue.

Member

I know you are not obliged to answer, but I reread your statement above and found many references to what Orbán is doing wrong without a statement of the alternative. I assume you think he should comply with Brussels and accept the quotas, but I am not sure. Anyway, thank you for the Australian compare and contrast, that’s useful.

Member

correction: bated breath

Ferenc
Guest

make your own blog (suggested name: juliabouthungary.hu)
PS1: get better informed as a previous comment contained FAKE news: [all asylum-seekers granted protection in 2017] are 1,292 coptic Christians
PS2: found some time to check suggested infograms??

Guest

Ferenc, Julia just might join leto – you know this crazy guy’s sites?
He’s a perfect example of a Hungarian xenophobe, homophobe, antisemite woman hater and with the help of his groupies like olga destroyed politics.hu.
Even tried it here but was banned quickly.

tappanch
Guest

Re: Turkey’s new war against the Kurdish-held Afrin and Manbij districts of Syria.

Erdogan’s plan seems to be the creation of a Turkish protectorate
in northern Syria in the place of the current Kurdish control.
He would like to dump some of the Syrian refugees and
some of his own Kurdish population in this zone.

Farkas
Guest
The Turkish position on the Kurds is very similar to the Hungarian position during the Dual Monarchy era regarding the other nationalities living in the Kingdom of Hungary; to the Israeli position on the Palestinian Arabs; to the Hindu position on Muslim Indians before the partition of India; to the Spanish position on Catalonia; or the Romanian position in regard to the autonomy aspirations of Transylvanian Hungarians. What the Kurds are seeking is first autonomy within Turkey, then partition of Turkey, and then a united Kurdestan including all Kurd areas currently in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and ultimately Iran. The social justice-oriented and nominally “Marxist” PKK has been fighting the Turkish army for well-nigh forty years now, because the Turkish authorities have never been willing to negotiate on this issue. As a result of Turkey’s NATO membership and its role as key strategic linchpin against the Soviets during the Cold War, the PKK has been put on the list of terrorist organisations in Washington many years ago, way back in the days of the Cold War. Meantime, in completely changed circumstances, the PKK-inspired and controlled YPG operating in various isolated Kurdish areas along the Turkish-Syrian border, has become a valued American… Read more »
tappanch
Guest

There is some analogy here.

Turkey 2018 cf Austro-Hungarian Monarchy 1914

Preemptive offensive war in the south to block the unification of the Kurds cf Serbs, and
prevent the dismemberment of
Turkey cf Monarchy

Farkas
Guest
Yup, exactly. Except that the infinite brutality and determination of the Turks should never be underestimated. If the Kurds push too hard, they could well become the victims of a horrific genocide, compared to which what befell the Armenians during WW1 was just a vicarage tea party. In their corner of the world nobody plays by Queensberry rules, and least of all the despotic Turks. And by the way, regarding the 19th and 20th century partition issues, of which the ongoing Turkish/Kurdish conflict is a particularly strong echo, the list I provided in the first paragraph of my post above was of course very far from comprehensive. After all, there was the Irish struggle for independence followed by partition; the Polish struggle for independence followed by the re-establishment of Poland; the 19th century German unification process, followed by its 20th century shrinkage due to partitions after lost wars, then ultimately followed by partial reunification; the dismemberment/partitioning of the Habsburg Empire and the Kingdom of Hungary due as much to having ended on the losing side in WW1 as to their inability to resolve their respective restive nationalities issues; the Romanian and other Balkan partitions, unifications and repartitions; the partial dismemberment,… Read more »
Guest

And that’s why we need institutions like the EU, NATO (and the UN of course). My friends, famiy and I never cease to marvel at the ease we now experience traveling through Europe – compared to 40 years ago. Why do some peole seem to never get it that “nation states” are unnecessary if you live in peace with your neighbours?

AfterEight
Guest
Lawyers and secret service people at work in the Fidesz government part 569. Yesterday the Competition Office carried out a ‘dawn raid’ at Magyar Telekom and Telenor alleging bid rigging with respect to the mobile internet frequency auctions held in 2014. Now, a few days ago Janos Lazar (who also happens to oversee the operations of the Information Office, one of the main civilian intelligence agencies) casually mentioned that the government is renewing its efforts to acquire a mobile telecom company. Orban decided many years ago that he wants a mobile company and Orban is not easily giving up on his obsessions. This means that either MT, Telenor or Vodafone will be purchased soon. Yesterday it was published that Telenor Hungary might be for sale and previously it was also rumored that Vodafone Hungary might also be for sale (for the right price, that is). The Hungarian market is small and neither Telenor nor Vodafone is making any real money although Telenor used to be profitable (it may still is). Since the result of the legal procedure could very well be the taking away of the frequencies which are necessary to operate the mobile internet services Orban will be in… Read more »
Observer
Guest

This would be another wound inflicted on the Hun business environment/investment/economy which is still going, if not very well, despite being pushed, pulled and tormented by the Orban regime.

tappanch
Guest

Re: April 8, 2018 Hungarian election.

Since January 11, 2018, ALL of the members of the “National Election Commission” are Fidesz-appointees.

On January 22, the Commission decided to change the rules of the election to make it almost impossible for the opposition to unite.

If an opposition party withdraws its candidates from electoral districts to support the strongest opposition candidate, and chooses not to compete in Budapest and in fewer than 26 districts outside Budapest, then the party cannot compete for party list MP seats.

https://index.hu/belfold/2018/valasztas/2018/01/25/nvb_iranymutatas_listaallitas/

Question:
what % of the precincts will not have independent or opposition observers when the votes are counted on April 8 ?

Ferenc
Guest

“If an opposition party withdraws its candidates from electoral districts to support the strongest opposition candidate, and chooses not to compete in Budapest and in fewer than 26 districts outside Budapest, then the party cannot compete for party list MP seats.”
afaik this is NOT new, was already mentioned by Observer in his 2017.Dec.12 post about the electoral system http://hungarianspectrum.org/2017/12/19/observer-the-heavily-biased-hungarian-electoral-system/ (yes Julia, THAT is a post)

PS: I have the impression that the quality of reporting by index.hu has gone down (since Dudas Gergely resigned…)

tappanch
Guest

Nepote-capital.

Only six of Orban’s oligarchs (Meszaros, Garancsi, Szijj, Vajna, Tiborcz, Adam Matolcsy) have borrowed at least 130 billion forints from banks; about 70% of the borrowed money came from state-owned banks.

https://atlatszo.hu/2018/01/25/veszelyesen-eladosodott-a-nemzeti-tokesosztaly-bankcsodoket-hozhat-egy-kormanyvaltas/

Observer
Guest

OMG
This is big money and part of the monumental corruption system, as my bet is that these “businesses” are kept alive by sucking strong on the public funds nipple.

tappanch
Guest

Soros in Davos:

“In the United States, President Trump would like to establish a mafia state, but can’t”, because America’s institutions, constitution and its “vibrant civil society” won’t allow it.

“I see Trump as a purely temporary phenomenon which will disappear in 2020, or earlier”

[Speaking of Google and Facebook]
“if you combine subversion of democracy with countries like Russia or China then you get a totalitarian state beyond anything Orwell or Aldous Huxley could’ve imagined”

“I was much better treated as a refugee myself than refugees are being treated today”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/jan/25/davos-2018-may-trump-hammond-lagarde-climate-change-crypto-tax-avoidance-day-three-live

tappanch
Guest

Orban has bought the leaders of the opposition party MSzP, and has spies in the emerging opposition parties as well, said Soros.

(I could not find the original text, unfortunately)

https://444.hu/2018/01/25/soros-szerint-orban-megvasarolta-az-mszp-vezetoit-es-a-kis-partokban-is-vannak-kemei

tappanch
Guest

Two minutes out of 62 minutes deal with Orban’s Hungary .

Listen to the 55th minute in

https://www.facebook.com/bloombergbusiness/videos/10156109486751880/

wrfree
Guest

Soros: “In the United States, President Trump would like to establish a mafia state, but can’t”, because America’s institutions, constitution and its “vibrant civil society’ win’t allow it’.

Reminds one of Henry Hill’s observation from the masterful work, ‘Goodfellas’ where the the mafua theme is ‘you can play but you will pay’:

‘Paulie may have moved slow but it was only because Paulie didn’t have to move for anybody’.

Considering the first months of POTUS in action he has sufficiently shown that there will always be a careful ‘watch on the Potomac’. POTUS looks as if he will always be forced to be ‘on the move’. He may always have to have his luggage packed. ‘Settling in’ will be an adventure.

tappanch
Guest

Orban’s police state in action.

Police seized the computer of a high school student,
Zsigmond Rékasi from his home today.
Mr Rékasi was a speaker at opposition rallies.

https://24.hu/szorakozas/2018/01/25/rendorok-foglaltak-le-rekasi-karoly-es-detar-eniko-fianak-szamitogepet/

Ferenc
Guest

OT
KZ/ZK wrote something flabbergasting on his blog at abouthungary.hu:
2018.Jan.25, last line:
“The next time you see Viktor Orban referred to as a politician, remember that his work is not about democracy.”
…and Public Enemy once rapped: D D D Don’t Believe the Hype [aka.bogus news]…

Observer
Guest

It is FASCISM folks, creeping, gobbling up everything, growing and hardening.
I have been ringing this bell since 2007 and loud since 2011.

wrfree
Guest

You’re in good company. Dylan too… His ‘ringing of bells’ come off the pen and page. A magnificent and deep song with many shades of meaning in the lyrics. Dylan notes it was tough to write.

Fascism today certainly ‘rings its bells’. And heathen, the faithful and all others in between ‘ring’ theirs too. Humanity always make decisions on which set of bells should ring the loudest. There is choice in which to listen to. And therein is the rub in how we go about it.

Writer: Dylan …Singer: Lightfoot…
https://youtu.be/4gFxxDOnsK0