Sándor Lezsák: “A quiet prayer for Miklós Horthy”

I must say I was shocked when I read the text of Sándor Lezsák’s speech that he could not deliver because the “memorial mass” for Miklós Horthy, the regent of Hungary between the two world wars, was cancelled. Sándor Lezsák, the deputy speaker of parliament, is well-known for his unusually strong attachment to the whole Horthy family. He is also a proponent of Turanism and an avowed admirer of Russian culture. As a devotee of Turanism, this fervently Catholic man invited shamans from Central Asia to perform their pagan rituals in the Hungarian parliament. As far as his attachment to Russia is concerned, he is the honorary president of the Tolsztoj Társaság (Tolstoy Association), which might be considered admirable. Alas, the board of the association includes people like T. Gyula Máté, the son of Gyula Thürmer, chairman of Hungary’s minuscule communist party, and Gábor Stier, the pro-Russian foreign affairs editor of Magyar Nemzet.

As for his infatuation with Miklós Horthy, in 2013 he began advocating for a “scientific institution” whose sole task would be the study of Hungary’s interwar period. Lezsák’s efforts were interpreted by mainstream historians as “an attempt at strengthening a positive Horthy portrait” by “conservative circles.” Lezsák’s idea was taken up by the Orbán government when parliament established the Veritas Research Institute in late 2013.

In 2015 Lezsák delivered a speech at a conference on “Society and culture in Hungary between the two world wars.” Here is one telling sentence from this speech. “Those historians, teachers, politicians, and journalists who have been singing the old international songs about the white terror or Horthy’s fascism read from the scores of communism, socialism, or liberalism.”

Sándor Lezsák delivers a lecture on the Miklós Horthy in 2015

I have written about Lezsák’s Horthy fetish in the past, but I was still shocked at the speech he published today in Magyar Hírlap titled “Quiet prayer in the Downtown Parish.” In my opinion, in no other writings or speeches that I know of did Lezsák go as far as he did in this one.

Before I get to the essence of this speech, I would like to point out two anomalies Lezsák inadvertently revealed. First, if you recall, Zoltán Osztie insisted that the speeches would be delivered separately from the “memorial mass.” But Lezsák, at the very beginning of his speech, says, “My Lord, I was asked to speak about the Horthy family, the governor, his wife, sons and daughter-in-law Ilona in your Holy Tabernacle.” His “quiet prayer” is heard “in the presence of the relics of our King Saint László, Saint Elizabeth, and Saint Gellért, the martyr bishop.” No question, the speeches were to be heard inside of the church, presumably as part of the memorial mass. Second, Zoltán Osztie insisted that the unfortunate choice of date was inadvertent. Among all the possible days for the “memorial mass” swirling around in their heads, it skipped their minds that January 27 is the International Holocaust Remembrance Day. But from Lezsák’s “quiet prayer” it becomes clear that the Association of Christian Professionals purposely picked this day because the organizers considered it an appropriate time to remember the man who did so much for Hungary’s Jewish population.

These petty lies, which Lezsák doesn’t even bother to cover up, pale in comparison to Lezsák’s notions about modern Hungarian history. Let’s start with the justification of the Horthy regime’s revisionist foreign policy as “a historical necessity.” Granted, Hungarian public opinion was solidly behind such a foreign policy, but wiser political leaders would have moderated the strong desire to regain some of the lost territories. Unfortunately, all Hungarian governments between the two world wars used irredentist propaganda, which can be compared in intensity to Viktor Orbán’s anti-refugee campaign. And we know from modern polling techniques how effective such concentrated propaganda can be, especially if it falls on fertile soil.

Nothing in history is preordained, although Hungary’s geopolitical position and, of course, being on the losing side in both World War I and World War II made its situation difficult when borders were redrawn — and redrawn again. From the beginning, however, Great Britain wasn’t happy about the large Hungarian minority in southern Slovakia and later had second thoughts about the viability of Czechoslovakia period. And the Soviet Union indicated to the Hungarian government in 1941 that, if Hungary sat out the war against the Soviet Union, it could count on the Soviet Union in its border dispute with Romania. Both opportunities were missed.

In Lezsák’s eyes, Miklós Horthy is a real hero who was the driving force of Hungary’s “resurrection” after “the brutal communist terror” and war. This was indeed the Horthy propaganda, but in fact, with the exception of Horthy’s first two years in office, he mercifully retired from active politics and let Prime Minister István Bethlen carry on the day-to-day affairs of governing. When Horthy returned to active political participation, it became patently obvious that he was not up to the task. But Sándor Lezsák doesn’t like to hear the opinion of professional historians when it comes to assessing Horthy’s political talents. In this speech, as well as in his earlier remarks, he instructs them to correct the current image of Horthy. As he puts it, Horthy is “a victim of historical and political character assassination whose character and career were besmirched and disfigured…. It is the challenge and responsibility of historians” to set aright Horthy’s true role in Hungarian history. And, more critically, “it is the job of politicians and public figures to courageously honor and commit themselves to the Horthy era and to the statesman-like characteristics of the governor despite all attacks.” Thus Lezsák wants the Orbán government to openly admit that it is a successor to the Horthy era.

Finally, we should concentrate on a crucial sentence in which Lezsák basically accuses “our Jewish compatriots” of being among those who distort the historical figure of Miklós Horthy. They “should follow the example of those Jewish compatriots who appreciated the courageous decisions of Governor Miklós Horthy and expressed their gratefulness in numerous ways. They should not be asked for more than fairness in their judgment.” This admittedly rather confused passage needs some interpretation because it is difficult to identify the two kinds of Jewish compatriots. In simple English, there are Jewish historians, current leaders of the Jewish community, and ordinary folks of Jewish heritage who are responsible for the bad image of Horthy today. But Jews who survived the Horthy era appreciated the fact that the governor saved them and expressed their gratefulness in various ways. The Jewish compatriots of today should be at least as fair as those Jews of yesteryear.

The “grateful Jews” story is based on two alleged facts. One is that Horthy and family were apparently supported financially by extremely wealthy Jewish Hungarian families who survived the Holocaust. The other is that someone saw a wreath at Horthy’s reburial in 1993 that said “From the grateful Jewish community.” The former story I found on a far-right site while the second one, in a seemingly more reliable version, appears on the Jobbik site “Szebb Jövő” (Better Future). Here we learn that it wasn’t the grateful Jewish community that placed a wreath on Horthy’s grave but a single man — János Blumgrund, born in Pozsony/Bratislava, who at the time of the reburial lived in Vienna. Under the influence of his Catholic wife, Blumgrund converted to Catholicism, and “he was among the rare and lucky people whose godfather was none other than His Holiness Pope John Paul II.” So much for the grateful Jewish community who should be emulated by today’s ungrateful Jewish Hungarians.

This story indicates the superficiality and the half-truths perpetuated by those who instruct historians to rewrite history so as to celebrate the glory of the Horthy era. And to enlist God’s help in this mission.

January 30, 2018
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Farkas
Guest
Hungary as a nation seems beyond repair and redemptions. Lezsák’s assertions are of course both confused and mendacious, but I would make two points. 1. Until the entry into Hungary of a handful of Wehrmacht divisions on 19 March 1944, the Hungarian Jew Laws were never really enforced with the Prussian rigour that the Nuremberg Laws were enforced in Germany, at least not in the case of business people of means and contacts who were nominally converts to one or another mainstream Christian denomination, as for instance my parents. That however was not at all cause for any “gratitude” to the Governor, since it was merely an incidental by-product of wartime economic need, rather than any targeted alleviation of the wretched conditions imposed on Hungarian of Jewish descent following the enactment of the three Jew Laws. 2. My take on the interwar years in Hungary is that even if at the end of WW1 Hungary had opted for liberal democracy like Czechoslovakia (as the short lived Károlyi/Jászi experiment attempted to, but failed), and had totally abstained from any and all territorial demands to reverse Trianon, the WW2 outcomes would have still been much the same. The Germans would have overrun… Read more »
Thereality
Guest

Czechoslovakia was everything but not liberal democracy. Modern social science call it “ethnic democracy”, where democratic rights and rules were applied only to the sons of the “master nation”.

Reality Check
Guest

That’s not the definition of an ethnic democracy. Stop posting nonsense.

“Ethnic democracy is a political system that combines a structured ethnic dominance with democratic, political and civil rights for all. Both the dominant ethnic group and the minority ethnic groups have citizenship and are able to fully participate in the political process.”

Observer
Guest

You have the gall to say this when there wasn’t a single Slovak language school in “Hungary” before WW1!

Farkas
Guest

@Thereality
January 31, 2018 3:09 pm

Context is everything, as is intention. In the context of East Central Europe, Czechoslovakia was indeed a shining star of liberal democracy in the interwar years, both by declared intention and by its actual political culture, and its exemplary respect for minority rights was light years ahead of the practices by others in the region.

What you are referring to in your post are the restive and troublesome German and Hungarian minorities who were unprepared to accept the existence of Czechoslovakia, yet enjoyed what under the circumstances were astonishing levels of tolerance, acceptance and integration on the part of the Czechoslovak state, quite uniquely for the region.

And by the way, “master nation” was a Hungarian notion evolved during the Dual Monarchy, and in any case, there were two of those in Czechoslovakia, not one (so which of those was supposed to have been the master and which the servant? :-))) ).

Thereality
Guest

As I said, Czechoslovakia was not liberal democracy, but etnick democracy. Similar to Romania, Czechoislovak state gave less right to minorities than Kingdom of Hungary. After the WW2, forced violent deportations and Benes decrees followed the war. (Even the brutal events of ww2 did not develop their moral) And you forget that the CZ state had not any provable legitimacy when it was invented and created.

Farkas
Guest

As far as the interwar situation is concerned, you can assert whatever you like, the facts remain facts.

I have no trouble recognising that the post-WW2 deportations of Sudeten Germans and Slovakian Hungarians was indeed brutal, but so was Hitler’s invasion and destruction of Czechoslovakia, and Horthy carving out a slice of Southern Slovakia for Hungary.

But anyway, what has that got to do with the exemplary liberal democracy and the just as exemplary respect for minority rights in Czechoslovakia in the interwar years?

As far as your assertion that the creation of the Czechoslovak state was illegitimate, all I can say is that with that assertion you are in the realm of the weird and the bizarre, so I won’t respond to it.

Ever heard of the right of self-determination of people, including Slavic people, as long as they fully respect minority rights?

Which the Czechoslovak state most certainly did during the interwar years in the case of Germans, Hungarians and Ruthenes native to Czechoslovakian territory!!

Thereality
Guest

” from the Hungarian Age of Reform regarding the possibility of exclusive political and military control of the Carpathian Basin by the Hungarians”
Wrong. The 19th century Reform era has nothing to do with Holocaust, because it is a 20th century product. The Hungarians were the first who emancipated the Jews on the Continental Europe. (Emancipation was forced by Louis Kossuth)
Holocaust could have happened in Hungary whether Hungary join to the axis (and the war) or not. See the case of Poland and Polish Jews, which was a pro-western country before the WW2.

Reality Check
Guest

Not entirely true. Read “In Defense of Christian Hungary” to explore the 19th century roots of the anti-Semitism that became part of Hungarian law in the interwar period.

And just because Jews were awarded legal protections in 1867 (the brief emancipation of the 1849 only lasted two weeks), doesn’t mean that the antiemetic attitudes that were present in the country disappeared. And please note that for only 33 years of the 19th century were Jews legally emancipated.

So to understand the anti-Semitism of the 20th century, one must also study its roots before than.

Observer
Guest

The whatever
All wrong.
Pls go learn some history. May start with learning that all is historical development, then look up the European Antisemitism 1700 history, finally look up Napoleon’s emancipation of the Jews, and that was earlier than Kosuth, or not?

Farkas
Guest
@Thereality January 31, 2018 10:31 am I think we are talking at cross purposes. The quote that heads up up your post is about “the possibility of exclusive political and military control of the Carpathian Basin by the Hungarians,” which, like it or not, was in fact the entire geo-strategic thrust of the political aspets of the Hungarian Age of Reform. You immediately follow that with a non sequitur: “The 19th century Reform era has nothing to do with Holocaust, because it is a 20th century product.” What has that got to do with the price of rice? I merely asserted that the Hungarian Age of Reform had triggered a long chain of events, one ultimate by-product of which was the Hungarian Holocaust. Among many others. Then you follow that one up with two falsehoods: (1) It was in fact not the Hungarians, but the French that had first emancipated the Jews on Continental Europe, some seventy years before the Hungarians; (2) Kossuth had most certainly not “forced” the emancipation of Hungarian Jews, though at times he argued for it in public in the decade before he was forced to go into exile upon the loss of the War of… Read more »
Thereality
Guest
In July 1849, the Hungarian Revolutionary Parliament proclaimed and enacted the first laws on ethnic and minority rights in the world. It gave minorities the freedom to use their mother tongue at local administration, at tribunals, in schools, in community life and even within the national guard of non-Magyar councils. However these laws were overturned after the united Russian and Austrian armies crushed the Hungarian Revolution. After the Kingdom of Hungary reached the Compromise with the Habsburg Dynasty in 1867, one of the first acts of its restored Parliament was to pass a Law on Nationalities (Act Number XLIV of1868). The situation of minorities in Hungary were much more better than in contemporary pre WW1 Europe. Other highly multiethnic /multinational countries were: France Russia and UK. See the multi-national UK: The situation of Scottish Irish Welsh people in “Britain” during the English hegemony is well known. They utmost forgot their original language,only English language cultural educational institutions existed. The only language was English in judiciary procedures and in offices and public administrations. It was not a real “United” Kingdom,it was rather a greater England. See the multiethnic France: In 1870, France was a similar-degree multi-ethnic state as Hungary, only 50%… Read more »
Farkas
Guest
@Thereality February 1, 2018 3:45 am I think we are still arguing at cross purposes. The reason why outcomes of the nationalities/languages questions in France or England on the one hand, and in Hungary on the other hand, were so different, was because Hungary was facing an entirely different and totally adverse set of geo-political and geo-strategic challenges in respect of its nationalities/languages problem than the two big West European colonial powers. Hungary was not even an independent country before WW1, it was terribly backward and depending on Jews and Germans to pull it out of its feudal mire, and above all, it was attempting, predictably unsuccessfully, to play far above its real strategic weight and class, primarily because demographically and militarily it was incomparably weaker than would have been necessary to successfully confront and overcome the challenges it was facing on nationalities/languages front. On that front, Hungary was facing overwhelming centrifugal pressures on the one hand from Pravoslav separatism among its Slavic nationalities/languages striving for self-determination, and on the other hand from the powerful push to join the Regatul României among its Romanian minority (who incidentally formed decisive majorities in the countryside of the Partium and in Southern Transylvania).… Read more »
Jean P
Guest

“What about newspapers of ethnic minorities in Western Europe? They did not exist in the West.”

The reality is that many minority newspaper existed in Europe from about 1850. Consult the list in he link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Association_of_Daily_Newspapers_in_Minority_and_Regional_Languages

Observer
Guest

Farkas
Great summary again, but for the
” Hungarian Jewry would have got totally wiped out within a year, and in 1944/45 the country would have become a theatre of war …” and, as you note, the rest would have happened all the same.
But you are looking at that with the benefit of hindsight, while until 1941 Horthy/Hun gov were in step with Hitler re the Jewish question, aggressive war on Cz and Yug, taking back from Romania, the actual extradition of the “new” Jews. Their policies were all pointing in the same direction and the upper class was clearly cheering, even with the knowledge of Main Kampf, Kristallnacht, Nurnberg Laws, etc.
Pretty shameful and not very clever (e.g. Teleki saw the disaster coming).

Farkas
Guest

@Observer
January 31, 2018 5:01 am

Yes, but what I was considering in my post was a “woulda, coulda” counterfactual: what if Hungary would have turned its back on irredentism and antisemitism after WW1 and would have instead opted to follow the Czechoslovakian liberal democratic road? Would that have made any significant difference to the outcomes of WW2 for Hungary? This was just a thought experiment which sadly concluded that tragically, it would have been highly unlikely to have made any kind of a significant difference to the outcomes of WW2 as far as Hungary was concerned, except that the Don River disaster would have been avoided and Hungarian Jewry would have got completely wiped out in the first couple of years of the war, just like their Polish cousins.

Istvan
Guest
I was very young when I first learned of Count Pál Teleki’s suicide. As Hungarians know Teleki was a critical promoter of the Hungarian Boy Scouts an organization that continues to exist in the USA to this day. Formally it was called the Hungarian Scout Association in Exile and there was a troop in our Hungarian Catholic Church here in Chicago. There was also a troop in the Hungarian Calvinist church on the north side of Chicago. All meetings (on Friday nights), outings and camps were held with only the Hungarian language being spoken. I was in the Scouts for about ten years. The Scouts were a critical element in my upbringing and in the early 1960s it was also a ferocious anti-Communist organization that taught us about the history of Hungary from a very skewed perspective. As I related on this blog years ago I was raised a young fervent anti-communist and wanted to fight the communists with all my heart and Vietnam provided that opportunity for me although it was very late in our war. I was in the literal sense raised to hate Russians and I will admit that is still within me to this day and… Read more »
Farkas
Guest

@István
January 31, 2018 8:19 am

Teleki might have been a fanatic antisemite an irredentist, but he was also one of those old-style Hungarian gentleman of profound personal integrity, whose word was his bond, rigidly, absolutely and irrevocably. His suicide had remained an unresolved enigma for fellow Hungarian antisemites and irredentists, who have been trying to square this circle ever since with accusations of cowardice. Nonsense. He gave his personal word of honour to the Yugoslavs about Hungary’s peaceable intentions, and was not prepared to live with the shame of his country invading Yugoslavia immediately afterwards. It was that simple.

wrfree
Guest

For sure. And I’d like to say that in some cases it is simple words like ‘Ruszkik haza’ that stay with you for all your life. And the child then becomes father to the man.

The memory of that fateful day at the UN is lost in a fog. But the thing is the whole reprehensible episode has taken me to a high point where certain ‘things’ come clear to me as seeing dabs of white on black. They say by 7 children take on the mantle of reason.

Perhaps there was an exception. I believe I got hit by a lightning bolt of ‘moral clarity’ a bit earlier. It stirred its neurons. It was a learning of the differences between bs and truth. It is a very good skill to have nowadays. I see it alive here and outside with quite a few.

Farkas
Guest

I was just listening on the radio to a most interesting conversation about the networks of big time kleptocrats operating at the international level, mainly Russian and Chinese, but plenty of others too, and their enablers in the West, for instance selling passports and residence rights for “minimum” investments (shades of Rogán in Hungary . . . ), or making available the shell companies, the legal, financial and real estate services, and the tax havens, and so on, that are necessary for handling by definition opaque and illegal financial transactions.

So, it occurred to me immediately that Orbán and his mob fit right into this cohort, which is first and foremost and above all kleptocratic, though in the case of Orbán nepotistic too. Therefore, I would like to add “kleptocratic” and “nepotistic” in the last sentence of the fifth paragraph above, thus:

“( . . . ) followed by a complete inability to sustainably switch to liberal democracy within the EU framework, and ending in the kleptocratic, nepotistic, fascistic and thoroughly corrupt corporatist mafia state of today.”

Observer
Guest
Lezsák is representative for the somewhat loony segment (more than a bunch) of virulent nationalists, from Peter Boros to the felon G. Budaházi to J.Torgyán offering Hungary again to the Virgin Mary. They are pushing an absurd mix of: unique ethnicity – baby bottom red spots, unique gene shared with the Japanese, Catholic defenders of Christianity/Europe, turuls and shamans, scientific institutes, exceptional 1000 year culture, great power and perennial victim of history, the most Nobel Prize winners, etc. myths. No matter the “unique” Basques, Greeks, Finns, Armenians, Irish, etc. nor the fact that most European “nations” have much longer state history of – e.g. Greeks, Armenians 2500+, Bulgarians 1300+ years, that Thökoly and the Bethlens were Osman allies against Europe, the Nobel laureates were mostly Jews, etc. etc. This virulent, irrational, often untruthful and ridiculous nationalism, seen in small nations/ethnic groups too, has been the center of Hun politics since WW1 (commie times excluded) where the spiral of politics – propaganda – public opinion – politics blinded the population and restricted the maneuvering space for the politics (PM Teleki’s thoughts). We know what it did to Hungary. Something similar is going on again, this time solely to extend the Orban… Read more »
Thereality
Guest

Wrong. Greeks have very young state like Germany, Italy or modern Egypt. There were only some nations which existed when Kingdom of Hungary was founded by saint Stephen.

Reality Check
Guest

Many states established their sovereignty in Europe before and around the time that Hungary did. Hungary is not unique in this regard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe

Observer
Guest

Reality
So the Greeks have a young state and the Hungarians much older?!
This is some “alternative” reality I guess, what can one expect from a fidesznik ?

Guest

Troll!
Btw whenever I read “Saint X” I ask myself:
What ugly deeds did he perform to get this from the Catholic Church?

bimbi
Guest

@wolfi7777, 11:22 a.m.

Well I can offer some clarity on that score:
“His religious zeal had cruel overtones: when it seemed as if his throne would pass to a pagan, Stephen made sure it did not by blinding the man and pouring molten lead into his ears.”
From “The Danube, A cultural history” by Andrew Beattie, Oxford (2010), p. 138.

GO SAINTS!

Guest

Yes, my wife’s son told me that story – it was one (or even several?) of Stephen’s relatives if I remember correctly.
A bit OT:
A similar definition is “The Great …” – you must have killed an extra large number of people besides waging the usual wars to get this attribute.

bimbi
Guest

@Thereality, 10:39 a.m.

“…Hungary was founded by saint Stephen.”

First of all he wasn’t a “saint” (whatever that is) at that time and
Secondly “Hungary” back then was just a tribal encampment…

wrfree
Guest

Re: religion

Indeed a mover and shaker through time encompassing both good and evil. It has been quite a participant in the overall ‘gestalt’ of the events of early and modern civilization.

It would be remiss in European histories to exclude the effects of religion on events. However it is only one of the many effects impinging on societies and nations as they work their way through time.

Regarding religious fanaticism it does not operate in a vacuum. It gets its sustenance from political, social, economic and the cultural upheavals surrounding it in a swirling Dante-esque cauldron. Fanaticism revels in a time when worms get loose.

bimbi
Guest

@wrfree, 11:35 a.m.

Your last sentence sums up Sándor Lezsák perfectly. But does that mean he is a fanatical worm?

wrfree
Guest

Perhaps I should have been more specific then .. a tapeworm ….definition:
‘A parasite is an organism that lives on or inside another organism (the host) and benefits (for example, by getting nutrients) from the host at the host’s expense’.

It’s a sort of a mutual symbiosis. Each needs the other. A sort of ‘transference’ occurs between them. The fanaticist burrows through ‘there-to-be-taken’ minds. After that the infection spreads. Hard to get out. If Leszak is doing ‘science’ well this is it. And it ain’t holy. 😎

wrfree
Guest

Re: ‘religious wars raged continuosly’

That’s why for a ‘European’ (if that’s what he thinks he is) Orban is playing a very deadly game with the vicious attitudes his country shows against Islam. I just don’t think he reads to understand. He has to be playing too much foosball. He does not appear to be someone who can learn anything from history. For, if anything, it is the great teacher.

Guest

There were times in Europe where religious wars raged continuousy – like the 30 years war. It’s “nicely” described in the book series (10 fat volumes):
Die Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums
by Karl Heinz Deschner – parts of it available in other languages.
In the meantime I’ve learnt that some (most, all?) of these wars were based on economic problems – like the “Little Ice Age”. So religion was just a tool …

bimbi
Guest

Funny how these religious fanatics, whether catholic, pagan or “other” seem to get a voice in Hungary these days. Sure is a place for the “loony right” alright. By the way did the New World advocate for pederasty Milo Hanrahan get to deliver his message in Hungary a couple of weeks back? Then we have the Great Leader in Vienna yesterday not able to do anything else but lie about his caving in to the EU in the matter of immigrants – “NOT ONE!” – yeah right, Viktor still can’t admit to being forced to admit more than a thousand – and that doesn’t even include Rogan’s Residency Billion €uro Rip-off! Gee-zas! Are these people f****d up or what?

wrfree
Guest
Re: Leszak as a ‘representation’ and mouthpiece Certainly has an audience who listens. Magyarorszag would appear to have a bit of a different audience than Germany when it comes to confronting the crimes of the Nazis. Germany so far has done well in trying to come to grips with its heinous past. Initially they ignored it. It was too painful. But they managed to go into the mouth of hell and deal with the demons. It was a difficult action but nevertheless they engaged in it. They had to …..in order to move on and expunge the terrible ghosts. And today with Magyarorszag with the new generations who are far removed from those past years, where are they? Where are their candid explorations of the past? Aren’t they in the least interested in looking further? It would appear the communists and illiberalists have had control and indeed want to have continual control of the historical narratives. They engage in fictions ignoring input from realities. The march of illiberalism looks on now to continually short circuit all succeeding generations attempt at making an honest assessment of their shared pasts. Such insidiousness will affect the country for years and years to come.… Read more »
Guest

Without considering any reasoning re Horthy – just alook at the picture shows these guys as a kind of crazy Medieval clowns!
Yes, back to the good old days when Hungary was Great – was it?
A bit OT:
In Germany we have a movement called “Reichsbürger” (Imperial Citizens) which believe that the Great German Empire still exists – all the laws since 1945 are invalid …
So they print passports and other documents for Empire citizens – and there’s now more than 10 000 of them!

Guest

PS:
On politics.hu there is a survey re the Soros party – just 24% believe “Soros party doesn’t exist” – I’m sure it’s run by the Pires!

If it weren’t so sad it would be really funny – 70% of Hungarians are stupid/ignorant as hell!

Member

“Great Britain wasn’t happy about the large Hungarian minority in southern Slovakia and later had second thoughts about the viability of Czechoslovakia period. And the Soviet Union indicated to the Hungarian government in 1941 that, if Hungary sat out the war against the Soviet Union, it could count on the Soviet Union in its border dispute with Romania. Both opportunities were missed.”

This section seems to suggest that Great Britain and Comrade Stalin were world-renowned for keeping their promises. Talk to any Indian or Ukrainian farm worker for a second opinion.

Thereality
Guest

The fate of Eastern and East Central European borders was on the hand of Joseph Stalin.

Reality Check
Guest

Yeah right, it had nothing to do with their alliance with Germany. Hungary must take responsibility for its own fate when it gets in bed with the devil.

Guest

Troll!
How many Hungarians were willing servants of Stalin?
More or less than those who served Hitler?

Member

More or less?
I am pretty sure a lot of them were the same people.

Michael Kaplan
Guest

Yes, you are correct as many members of Arrow Cross who tortured people in what is called “House of Terror”
did same for communists when they took over the “House”.

Member

Whenever the concept of pre-Trianon “Greater Hungary” comes up, it reminds me of the US South, who lost the civil war and have never realized it. They still would love to have the slave economy back.

The Hungarians lost not only one war but two! They were the last allies of the Nazis. They do not accept the fact they were on the wrong side twice and are busy changing history to prove their innocence.

Furthermore, pre-Trianon Hungary wasn’t really Hungary at all, but the Austrian Empire.

Ivan
Guest

Only two? My father was aghast at Hungary’s acceptance by NATO: has nobody told them that Hungary has spent the last 500 years on the losing side?! Apologies for frivolity…

Jean P
Guest

“… it reminds me of the US South, who lost the civil war and have never realized it. They still would love to have the slave economy back.”

It is on the way with Trump in the US. It is on the way with Orban in Hungary. Cheap labor and slavery feels the same.

Member

There are many too many similarities for comfort. What Orban has done in the last 8 years is a Republican’s “wet dream”. Flat tax favoring the rich, fees and sales taxes to hurt the poor. Squeezing of education except for parochial schools and starving the health care system. All follow the R playbook.

Guest

Yes, there’s an uncanny similarity between Fidesz and the Repugs.
Whenever people in Germany ask me about Hungary and taxes the first thing I tell them is the crazy VAT at 27% – that shocks them usually.
And then I tell them:
But in Hungary only the poor and the stupid pay tax …

wrfree
Guest

Interesting point on the US South. It has had a tortured history considering its past. However in my opinion for the most part it is trying to come to terms with it and move on. Magyarorszag could learn some things but I don’t think they’re ‘innerested’.

The work can be difficult. It is certainly difficult especially for some blacks who would prefer that monuments to avowed Southern racists be destroyed rather than continued to keep their place on Southern streets and parks. The wounds and rememberances go too deep. The estrangement from the past is palpable.

But if there is one thing noticeable it is what occurred after the killings of nine black worshippers in June 2015 by a white racist at the Emanuel Church in Charleston. The shooter , Dylan Roof, wanted to bring about a race war. He didn’t succeed as whites and blacks in the city refused to play the deadly game. They all came together to receive and provide collective strength after the tragedy. Perhaps in that sense it is edifying to see that Southerners are duly trying to come together in destroying racism and hatred that hovers around the land.

Member

I am not convinced that it is coming to terms with it. The Republican party has been taken over by what used to be Southern Democrats, who were only because Lincoln was a Republican. Nixon’s “southern strategy” convinced them that the Republicans were “good ol'” racists and they converted. They are now in control and are working to win the war they lost through dirty politics. It is quite similar to South Africa during Apartheid.

bimbi
Guest

OFF TOPIC I suppose but…

“Orbán asked about OLAF investigation into son-in-law’s former company”, reports Budapest Beacon, 31 January 2018 [BRAVO! Beacon]: https://budapestbeacon.com/orban-asked-about-olaf-investigation-into-son-in-laws-former-company/

But down the bottom of the article we are told:
“OLAF may fine Hungary as much as EUR 43.7 million in connection with the scandal.”
Ain’t that great? How is it that the two crooks Tiborcz and his Sugar Daddy are not scraping that sum together? No, No, it seems the Hungarian tax payers will come good to cover their backsides… Hell, ol’ Penztaros could cover it out of his back pocket.