We are approaching another round of national consultations. It is hard to believe, but this will be the eighth quasi-referendum within ten years of Fidesz rule. Magyar Hírlap called our attention to the fact that Viktor Orbán used the phrase “national consultation” in his annual “state of the union” address in 2005, when he declared that he would like to win the 2006 election with a platform that would be approved by the electorate. As he put it, Fidesz will launch a program to make certain that “there will not be a single man within the present borders of the homeland who could say that he was not asked how he would like to shape his future.”
Orbán moved into action immediately. A few days after this speech, an eight-member National Consultation Association was formed. The body allegedly gathered information from “ordinary people” during visits to 700 localities. According to Fidesz sources, the members of the association had the opportunity to contact 1.6 million people, and they sent out 600,000 questionnaires. Apparently, based on the answers, Orbán announced in October 2005 “the need for a radical lowering of taxes, a radical decrease in the bureaucracy, and radical reduction in the number of politicians.” Viktor Orbán lost the election in 2006, so he didn’t have the opportunity to begin his promised national consultations, but since 2010 “they have become the usual means of communication.”
I believe it was Mária Vásárhelyi who first called attention to the similarities between Orbán’s “national consultations” and Hitler’s plebiscites or referendums, but nobody followed up on her lead. Today, I decided to pursue the subject. I was lucky enough to find a contemporary source that described in great detail the rationale of Hitler’s propaganda ministry for the plebiscites. The author of the article, “The Hitler Referenda,” was Arnold J. Zurcher, a professor of political science at New York University and later executive director of the Sloan Foundation. The article was published in the February 1935 issue of The American Political Science Review.
Hitler became chancellor of Germany on January 30, 1933, and on July 14 the cabinet decreed that from there on it would have the authority to hold plebiscites “on questions of national policy and laws.” It didn’t take long for the first such plebiscite to be held, on November 12, 1933. The electorate had to answer only one question: they were asked to render an opinion on the German government’s withdrawal from the League of Nations. Attached to the referendum was the German government’s justification for the withdrawal, pointing out the unfair treatment of Germany, which was suffering under the constraints of the Versailles Treaties. This first plebiscite was preceded by four weeks of intense propaganda in which even Hitler took an active part.
Less than a year later, immediately after President Paul von Hindenburg’s death on August 2, 1934, another referendum was held. It was urgent because, with Hindenburg’s death, Hitler’s power became illegitimate. The referendum served as a legitimization of his position. This time, the German electorate was asked to vote on conferring the president’s power upon Chancellor Hitler with the official title of Reichsführer.
The propaganda ministry’s strategy was wildly successful. Although there might have been a great deal of official pressure, “downright coercion and intimidation” at the polls wasn’t prevalent. Yet, in November 1933, at the first referendum, over 96 percent of 45 million Germans voted in favor of the government’s action in withdrawing from the League of Nations. As for Hitler’s assuming the role of president, 90% voted “yes.”
These early referendums were intended to demonstrate the loyalty of the population and to persuade foreigners who doubted the permanence of the regime. Arnold Zurcher quotes Wilhelm Frick, Hitler’s minister of interior, who said that “it is a downright lie when the foreign press asserts that Germany is ruled by an irresponsible dictatorship; on the contrary, Germany is ruled by a government resting on the overwhelming vote of the German people!” Hitler believed firmly in the institution of referendums. He wrote to Frick that he is “steeped in the conviction that the authority of the State proceeds from the people and must be ratified by them.”
The Third Reich held two more referendums. One on March 29, 1935, when Germans were asked to approve the military occupation of the Rhineland and a single party list for the new Reichstag. Two years later, on April 10, 1938, there was only a single question: whether voters would approve the annexation of Austria. The turnout for the referendum on the Rhineland was 99.5%, with 98.9% voting in the affirmative. In the referendum on Austria, the turnout was 99.73%, and 99.71% approved.
These last two referendums could best be categorized as jokes. Who wouldn’t approve of the military occupation of the Rhineland when, three weeks earlier, it was already an accomplished fact? The same was true about the annexation of Austria. German troops moved into Austria on March 12, 1938, and the referendum was held a month later. Here is a paper ballot from the 1938 referendum.
Translated, it reads: “Do you approve of the reunification of Austria with the German Reich that was enacted on March 13, 1938, and do you vote for the party of our leader, Adolf Hitler? Yes. No.” As Rory Sutherland wrote in “The Hitler guide to rigging a referendum,” this particular referendum question “conflates two separate questions, uses mention of the Anschluss to ‘prime’ voters by referencing Hitler’s recent ‘triumph’ and arranges the tick boxes to create a default answer.” As Josef Goebbels said, “the most effective form of persuasion is when you are not aware you are being persuaded.”
In the current Hungarian case, not only do all “national consultation” questions have default answers, but Orbán doesn’t even have the courage to allow public scrutiny of the results. The only time he tried a real referendum, on the “compulsory settlement” of refugees, it failed. Despite all his efforts, fewer than 50% of eligible voters went to the polls, invalidating the results. And so the phony national consultations continue, legitimizing nothing. They are simply an extension of Hungarian governmental propaganda.
Thanks Professor Balogh, very useful essay in comparative history and political science. The principle theme-if I understand- correctly is the use of “phony national consultations”. While Orban is not Hitler as you and most readers know, he, and one might add, others, such as Trump, all traffic in lies and political propaganda (as did Hitler) and as such, any so called consultations are frauds (the 2nd main theme tonight). The situation in Hungary is dire when one considers that this regime has destroyed-for the most part-an independent free press (newspapers), and the independent nature of most other mass media such as radio and television. As almost all readers know, it is difficult to combat the lies and “1984” Orwellian propaganda. Meanwhile, across the sea in the US, an ignorant and paranoid would be autocrat is threatening the very foundations of US liberal democracy. A few readers misunderstand the relevance of that fact to the situation in Hungary. It is vital that the grip of a would be thug such as Trump end in November- if not before -as another 4 years will not only mean the end of American democracy, it will guarantee a much longer life to the… Read more »
Misi bacsi, Orbán is not Hitler, indeed! Obviously Orbán didn’t start any war after 6 years in power, no minority is deported to death camps today (Wansee conference was after e9 years in power) and even parties may still operate as long as they are no danger to the power of Orbán.
But used ideology, powergrapping, and propaganda are very often very similar. It is hard to say whether Orbán would have been a “soft” but still almighty dictator, if he would have been in power in another country that is not relatively small and economically dependent on transfers from Brussels.
Re: the voting for the 5th Reichstag..Sept 14th 1930. Before the voting Hitler’s NSDAP party only had 12 seats. After they rocketed to 107. Second only to SPD Social Democrats who dropped from 153 to 143. When NSDAP got their win they went to the Hotel Kaiserhof and professed their fealty to Hitler himself. As when the 107 elected Nazi members of the Reichstag took their seats representing Hitler other members laughed at them. It was thought they showed a ‘ridiculous’ picture with their brown shirts. …‘Sieg Heil’ , ‘An Illustrated History of Germany from Bismarck to Hitler’, Stefan Lorant, WW Norton Sept 14th 1930 like D-Day June 6 1944 would indicate that Germany was on those two prescient days to suffer the highs and lows of a dangerous , out of control German nationalism. Fidesz in politics interestingly follows the pattern of being an also-ran then ‘learns’ how to win and keeps on winning with the requisite tinkering. The thing about the future is that it is impossible to predict with certainty where events will lead. It’s too bad we can’t see the faces of those after they laughed at people in brown… Read more »
Very interesting…. Great piece!
By the way, can the case be made that the treatment of Blacks in America is analogous to the treatment of Gypsies in Hungary?
Why bother? We don’t need classification. Action is needed.
In the USA – “We are all Americans!”
In Hungary – “We are all Hungarians!”
Simple, isn’t it?
Paul Nagy, the simple answer is no, despite the temptation to conflate the two. There is no even remotely powerful or articulate group of individuals in Hungary that puts forward an even remotely compressible case for advancing the status of the Gipsies to anything approaching equal status. Even if there were it has no chance of resonating with the local population.
Aida, You are 100% right on that.
The system guarantees and protects official anonymity and marginal civic status of many Roma, by only fully registering children of officially married couples, and not fully registering births by the many semi-litterate, officially unmarried, young Roma mothers. Their newly born children are not given the official personal identity numbers of a registered citizen, only the signature of the mother, sex, date and district are registred.
When/if the incompletely registered children present themselves officially, they share the exact same civic status as earlier times’ children of Jewish parents whoose publicly archived birth registrations were stamped with a bold “ZS”.
Michael D.
Thank you for these comments that draw attention to the “hidden” method of discriminating against babies! However, am I right in concluding that all “illegitimate” children are, or could be, discriminated against in this way? Whatever the answer to that point, what you have written about Roma children not receiving official and full recognition as Hungarian citizens, high-lights the truly despicable nature of Viktor Orbán and the robotic group of criminals he leads.
Just at this time, it appears he is at it again, refusing to pay the court-ordered compensation to Roma children in Gyöngöspata, saying that if any payment is to be made the community should pay it, but they of course have no money to do so, their funds having been cut. Orbán writ large:
“I am a petty, vindictive and cruel head of a criminal organization and I don’t need to follow the orders of any court of law”.
What a complete shit this guy shows himself to be.
Bimbi – No doubt, the present leadership drops ethical standards to new lower levels!
But regarding the discriminatory practices against babies and “illigetimate” births, I rather believe they are relics of older administrative cultures of public administrative practice.
Until the early 20’th century and even later, birth-registration records in most European countries were kept by the local parishes, under church administration. When a young woman was unlucky enough to get pregnant out of marriage, the consequenses were for the most part kept secret/unrecorded, unless marriage could be effected before the end of pregnancy. Not uncommonly, the grandparents or other closer relatives adopted these babies. In many (number unknown) cases, a single mother or her family would pay established women for fostering the child. These women were commonly known as “angel makers” – you can imagine why!
“older administrative cultures”, well, yes. Burning people at the stake was a popular punishment in the Cat’lic Church not so long since, or placing an iron collar about a “sinner’s” neck was a Scottish church practice, but we live in the 21st century, do we not? I tell ya, Religion poisons everything, but it seems even in “modern” Hungary that is the preferred path.What you describe is just dreadful.
Nothing wrong with religion-privately practiced.
Agreed. People have the right to their own beliefs.
That becomes a problem only when they’re trying to impose those beliefs on others.
“Archduke Michael Habsburg-Lothringen, former ambassador of the Order of Malta to Hungary, reveals key moments in the Habsburg dynasty’s persistent work to bring Christian values back to Hungary.’
“The archduke has had a discreet influence on Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s education and family laws”
“This interview, conducted in Budapest with Register senior correspondent Victor Gaetan, is the second article in a series on Catholic aristocrats who have had an exceptional influence in post-communist Europe, helping to restore civilization — and the Catholic Church.”
https://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/hungarys-secret-weapon-catholic-nobility
Catholics and civilization???
Just remember the ratlines after WW2 – and don’t even think about the church’s position on sexual concepts, whether abortion or LGBT.
Of course it’s totally different when priests are involved sexually …
Exactly. And Viktor Orban being a Calvinist, the influence the Archduke had on the education and family laws was probably through the Catholic Mrs. Orban.
In Germany more than a hundred years ago Engelmacherin (Angel maker) was used for women doing illegal abortions.
Of course mainly for poor women like the maids that were impregnated by their bosses. They often died from the procedure.
A few centuries earlier they were just declared witches and drowned …
“can the case be made that the treatment of Blacks in America is analogous to the treatment of Gypsies in Hungary ?”
No. In America the Blacks have become a sort of religion of the liberal-Whites. Their feelings are a national concern, their misdeeds go unspoken (that even if Blacks’ murder offender ratio is 8x(!) greater than that of Whites, really 12x if you disentangle the US statistics). In America, Blacks have an entire month when the Americans worship their invention of peanut butter and the super soaker. Trillions of public money are spent for them in all sorts of ‘affirmative action’ schemes (racial preferences in hiring, set aside contracts, subsidies), etc…In general, in America, the ideology, the basis for asserting your claim to privilege is that you come from a long line of victims and losers. This leaves the White Americans, the descendants of the men who built the country, made it an industrial power, and went to the Moon, dispossessed in their own native land.
God willing, and Orban/Fidesz keep winning, this psychotic stuff which passes for ideology and political culture in US, will never happen to Hungary as well.
I’m not going to answer Ovidiot’s rantings – just one remark:
come from a long line of victims and losers
Doesn’t that perfectly describe Hungarians?
The legacy of slavery makes the issue of African American people in the USA very difficult and somewhat different than the situation of the Roma. It has in fact created a permanent wealth racial wealth gap between African American people and the white majority at every educational level in the USA. Trump knows also how to manipulate fear of the under class in the USA. Trump used the case of what has become known as the Central Park 5 to really become a right wing political figure. He understood how one vicious crime against a white women could provide him with notoriety. (on this case see https://www.history.com/topics/1980s/central-park-five and https://www.huffpost.com/entry/central-park-five-trump-bounty_n_5cfc0573e4b0aab91c070dbb ) As we know Jobbik did similar things with the Roma and used supposed Roma crimes against Hungarian women in particular as a propaganda method. That method goes back to the blood libel claims against Jews in the middle ages. Fidesz of course not to be outdone did the same in its electoral efforts in Hungary. Trump understands the deep fear of African American crime in the USA which was made very apparent by primarily African American looting in numerous cities, particularly here in Chicago. The looting was… Read more »
Istvan (Chicago) – The Roma were brought into the region by the Tartar armies during the mid 14th (1300’s) century, as slaves of the armies. When the Tartars were defeated, in the 1360’s, by combined forces under what is presently Romanian leadership, their continued enslavement was officially reckognized as “spoils of war” and the Roma were eventually sold to land-owners in the vast region, including present-day Hungary. By the end of the 1700’s, their status as slaves changed to “serfs”, and until the international agreement to end slavery of the 1830´s was signed by Hungary, they did not have any other status. The serfdom restricted movement to specific local regions and they were strictly limited to very few choices of work and income.
As late as during the inter-war period, Roma were still publicly sold at market prices in Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia.
The time frame for the legacy of slavery is much more immediate in the situation of African Americans, many Black Americans can still trace their ancestors owners if they try hard to research it. There was no granting of freedom but a bloody civil war, even then many of the freed salves became indentured servants based on legal contracts with former slave owners. Others escaped to the north and lived in segregation in cities like Chicago. It leads directly to our current crisis at least in this city.
In 2014, the European Commission Published this paper, “The Roma Health Report”. I highly recommend reading it, especially considering the poetic nature of the East Europeans’ own description of the situation.
One would not think this was true of present day Europe.
in 2019, the EU launched a program for funding public kitchens, providing “needy” Roma one warm meal per day. In Hungary, this program also serves to keep unempoyment among “proper Hungarian” women lower than it would have been otherwise. The discriminatory trick that keeps the Roma out of employment by the EU-funding being, that you have to pass a written course on elementary kitchen-hygiene, eligible only for registered unemployed women.
The report.
https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/social_determinants/docs/2014_roma_health_report_en.pdf
“As late as during the inter-war period, Roma were still publicly sold at market prices in Romania, Bulgaria and Serbia.“
This statement is not accurate. The slavery of Roma was abolished in 1855 in Moldavia and in 1856 in Wallachia.
Officially yes, but classified advertised sale of Roma is well documented, even in the 1920’s.
The abolishment was effective only for those born after 1855, and the slavery was the more secure option for Roma many years after.
“classified advertised sale of Roma is well documented, even in the 1920’s“
Could you please substantiate your claim ? Please provide some links to such documents.
My reference is a library-book:
“The Pariah Syndrome: An Account Of Gypsy Slavery And Persecution” by Ian Hancock.
1989, Karoma Publishers Inc.
ISBN: 0897200799
The only paragraph that might get close to the claim that Roma sales continued in Romania until after WWI that I found is the following:
Still others, after emancipation, with no money or possessions, and having nowhere to go, offered themselves for re-sale to their previous owners. Grauer indicates that until shortly before the Second World War at least, this was reflected in the patterns of distribution of the Romani population in Rumania:
That – however – does not substantiate your claim that “classified advertised sale of Roma is well documented, even in the 1920’s“.
Is that it, or you can provide another paragraph containing the above claim ?
The tradition of selling child brides and bride fairs is an old Roma tradition.
The sales are also a legal grey zone, because they don’t meet the definitions of slave-trade, as specified in the 1926 slavery convention, the sold persons being under age and sales lacking written documentation. But it is effectively a form of white slavery, by which the sold person is robbed of personal legal rights.
The lack of written documentation doesn’t constitute grounds for assuming that it hasn’t existed, but it does provide an opportunity for choosing to deny or ignore the realities of white slavery.
I imagine the situation is under control in today’s Europe, but not so far away, in the Muslim world, different conditions prevail.
Even if outright sale of children no longer happens, there are still enough horrible stories.
An acquaintance of mine told me that a “friend” of his one afternoon in a Hungarian bar in a small village was accosted by a Roma woman and when he said he wasn’t interested she offered him her daughter – 16 years old …
I don’t know what happened then exactly but he was forbidden from entering the country again – that was 20 years ago.
There are two different issues here, I believe. One issue is the Roma slavery condoned by the laws enforced in the principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia until 1855 and 1856 respectively, while they were still vassals of the Ottoman Empire. The other issue is the Roma tradition of “bride sells”, who exists even nowadays, unfortunately. This concerns the “reverse dowry’, the bride price payed by the groom or his family to the girl’s parents. The issue here is rather that the girls are “married” as young as possible. They are in fact betrothed even as 6-7 years old, but usually the “marriage” is not consumed until they get to 13-14 years of age. This are considered sexual child abuses and are crimes under the Romanian law. These – however – does not substantiate your claim that “classified advertised sale of Roma is well documented, even in the 1920’s“. Let me make myself clear: The Roma slavery existed till the mid of the XIX-th century. The Porajmos (Roma Genocide) was perpetrated during WWII. The Roma are still extremely poor and with a very low level of education. There is still extensive discrimination against the Roma. All these are… Read more »
You are not incorrect. But old cultures and cultural traits don’t end very quickly.
There are many accounts of inherited serfdom and Roma “hands” sold as inventory of small villages under remote estates. After all – where could these peolpe go and find a new secure life? These people were (and are) apolitical with hardly any formal organization, and mutually beneficial lifetime arrangements are not so easily terminated.
If history and reality, as you call it, is limited to what is officially recorded, we may only know the tip of the iceberg.
I side with the weaker party and in the case of the Roma, we are talking about the largest and oldest ethnic minority in Europe. The fact that we know so little about them (being an aliterate culture) is a strong testimony of ages’ official neglect.
I really can’t see any reason why giving verbal testimonies the benefit of the doubt and thereby also persuing their assumed authenticity, can possibly jeopardize the whole effort of the emancipation of the Roma – It may scratch the historic pride and self-esteem of the established society a little bit, but so what? The Roma have nothing to loose by it.
I guess I exaggerated a bit with “false statements sets the whole effort of the emancipation of Roma under doubt”, but I do believe that a good cause is not well served by unsubstantiated statements.
@Istvan-C “The legacy of slavery makes the issue of African American people in the USA very difficult ..”
Yes, that’s true. If after the Civil War, the North had setup a reservation for the freed slaves in Florida, none of this would be happening. Sure, Florida would be Haiti right now, but no one cares about Haiti, not even the liberals.
Florida or whatever made up African name the locals gave it, would be at most, a sad curiosity.
“Trump knows also how to manipulate fear of the under class in the USA. ”
In this case it takes no effort, it has happened accross US…In fact is is enough to watch the hundreds of videos with the beatings, lootings, arsons, etc. on Twitter and you get the picture. It looked almost as an anti-White pogrom, a Kristallnacht but with African flavour.
“My hope is that white Americans do not fall for Trump’s tactics and vote for him in large enough numbers to win..”
Joe Biden is a relic from a bygone age, a relic suffering from severe cognitive decline. Trump versus a tattered museum piece is about the best match-up Trump can get in November.
Can anybody stop that dirt here?
There is very little evidence that in the events following the murder of Mr. Floyd the primary crime wave was against the persons of white people in Chicago but rather was against property owned by white controlled entities, but also some African American owned stores and shops. The individual crime in terms of shootings had as victims primarily members of the minority community. You can go to this oddly named but never the less accurate website https://heyjackass.com/ and see a graphic breakdown of the current violent crime victims in Chicago, only 4.8% are white people, 71.9% are African American as of June 2 of this year. But Chicago is indeed a very violent place where I often carry a concealed hand gun myself legally as do many others. Following the Civil War there were renewed proposals, including from President Andrew Johnson who replaced Lincoln following his murder, to send the freed slaves back to Africa, but they had no real support behind it. The main radical proposal was based on the idea of advocating land redistribution “to break the back of Southern slaveholders’ power.” President Johnson was opposed to that idea, because former slave owners (including himself still… Read more »
Re: That ‘long line of victim’s and losers’ Jung, the great German psychologist, had this to say about the Fuhrer. He was ‘ the first man to tell every German what he has been thinking and feeling all along in his unconscious about German fate , especially since the defeat in the World War , and the one characteristic which colors every German soul is the typical German inferiority complex, the complex of the younger brother , of the one who is a bit late to the feast’. And it seems another land is tilling the same kind of soul and soil we saw earlier in the 20th. The Fuhrer expansively pounding away on the seizure of the Rhineland( if only the French could have moved..a big oops) : ’What I have done , I did according to my conscience , and to the best of my knowledge , filled with concern for my people , realizing the necessity of protecting its honor , in order to lead it again to a position of honor in this world. And should unnecessary sorrow or suffering ever come to my people because of my actions , then I… Read more »
Ovi – Curbing the cyber-effects of your diagnosis is well out of the question, right?
Ovidiot, you forgot to mention the original inhabitants.
My wife and I on our last journey through the USA stayed in Cherokee for one night and visited the Cherokee museum.
@all others:
Ovidiot really is the perfect example of a fascist, white supremacist, racist, misogynist homophobe …
The funny side is that Hitler didn’t really accept the Balkan people as “white” or Aryans – so he might think about what would have happened if the Germans had won WW2 and expanded further into the East.
The Cherokee Wolfi interestingly owned in some cases owned Black slaves. The Cherokee adopted the practice of using enslaved African Americans on their plantations from European Americans. Most Cherokee held fewer slaves and labored with them at subsistence agriculture. Slaves worked primarily as agricultural laborers, cultivating both cotton for their master’s profit and food for consumption. Some slaves were skilled laborers, such as seamstresses and blacksmiths. Like other slaveholders, affluent Cherokee used slaves as a portable labor force. They developed robust farms, salt mines, and trading posts created with slave labor.
My wife’s tribe the Iroquois also did own Black slaves which were often looted from whites. The name for slave in their language often referred to as “domestic animals” or “dogs” which were equivalent to the word to “slave”. This use of language suggests that slaves were dehumanized, that slaves were “domesticated” and another that slaves were to be eaten as Haudenosaunee peoples ate dogs. This is rarely discussed by modern tribe members, its not a pretty picture really.
Romanians don’t belong to whites? Wolfi, don’t search that far. Just think about how many Hungarians judge about Romanians.
Like your grandfather shot and killed Gedeon Richter and many others and then threw them into the Danube, monika?
I often wonder whether Fidesz produces these similarities with Hitler’s ideas by accident or on purpose …
Közmunkás = Reichsarbeitsdienst
Ermächtigungsgesetz
Anyone can name more parallels?
The other boss of that ugly racist
Kedves Istvánék,
Fuh Chrissakes what have your posts got to do with the matter in hand? Can’t you see that Invidious loves to post comments that lead away from his precious Orbán and the pair of you follow along like dogs following a bitch in heat.
Sorry, for my part I did not answer to any of these stupidities, I just – as before – gave this troll the tin foil hat he deserves. Ridiculous things for ridiculous comments. After the second round of hate I did not mention the existing connection between US slavery and Haiti, but I just wondered why that creature is able to spread his dirt here all the time. Talking about that behaviour should not be the problem!
Let’s go to illustrative history. The great teacher which explains. What follows is a letter , shown actually as written in that time, of a slave trader in the South during the 1850’s, a boom time in the expanding slave trade. This is not an expose of the ‘stock market’ as such but it gives a glimpse of another one in the past where there was a lot of selling high and buying low. It explains why our nation is the way it is with regard to race relations. And why some places in little corners of Europe still believe with their hearts and minds that it should still continue the ‘way it was’ A.J McElveen to ZB Oakes, Sumterville SC , 7 November 1853. “yours came Safe to hand yesterday I was Glad to here from you. I have bought 2 negroes to day at private a Sale. ten head Sold at public out cry. I could not touch. the fact is the most was Bought in. the small Boy [Primus?] cost me $600. the fellow will $850. Send to the Rail Road for them on wednesday the Boys will not please you in Every Respect… Read more »
I think he just looks them up in his “play-book” like in US football. Ah yes, I’ll give him a 486 in reply to that… Please ignore the bum.
Re: that tinpot who we have ‘renting’ the office
Incredibly he is acting like a vestigial organ in the body politic as he is eminently incapable of taking the country forward to a better place. The country sad to say will never ever move on with ‘his’ kind to work against racial injustice in our conflict-ridden society nowadays. That dead organ brought magically to life is the BIG problem.
He seems to have a confectionary’s taste for white chocolate. He likes to get that ‘taste’ of chocolate of his out for sale. Only thing is he would seem only to be interested in is having the whiteness behind it all showing. And what is found sweet in Trump’s world rots more than teeth folks. We see the damage every day.
Winston Churchill’s statue in Parliament Square, Westminster has been vandalised on the 76th anniversary of the D-Day landings by Black Lives Matter protesters.
“Police were physically targeted, with video footage showing officers being chased through the streets and smashed to the ground, and also assaulted outside the gates guarding the PMs official residence—despite several officers having kneeled in submission to the protesters”
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/06/06/churchill-statue-vandalised-d-day-anniversary-blm-crowd-into-london/
…their history is erased–a prelude to them being erased.
Éva, do you really want to read these invented Breitbart stories here?
Independent.co.uk reports “Our correspondent Gemma Fox reports that the protests are peaceful, and only getting busier, with police currently keeping their distance. Meanwhile, Parliament Square is ringing out with chants of “Boris is a racist”.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-protests-today-black-lives-matter-george-floyd-death-us-a9552406.html
I agree that <i>Hungarian Spectrum</i> should take a cue from twitter and ban Ovidiu (and Zoli). Nothing good is served by letting them continue to spew their spoor freely.
DAY 68 OF THE LEAD-‘EM-BY-THE-NOSE DICTATORSHIP
It seems Mr. Goebbels’ spirit got one of those Under-Secretary sinecures in the Prime Minister’s Office.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Many of us commenting about the Orban-regime’s policies during the past decade called the attention of Orban’s copying many of Hitler’s heinous agendas, as well as ‘ideas’ borrowed from Orwell’s ‘1984’,. These, and most of his criminal acts, were and are known to the European political echelon, as yet nothing that Orban says and does provokes the only decent act, breaking all contacts and support to this fascist regime by the western governments of the day. With such an unwavering ‘external support’ of the regime how can the ordinary Hungarian citizens hope for a helping hand in getting rid of Orban and his henchmen? It is not only the autocratic laws, the nearly total ownership and control of the media and the stolen elections that are keeping this regime in power, but the EU’s continuation of its appeasement policy by tolerating AND financing a fascist regime in their ranks. Orban knows this, and knows also that he can get away with everything he does, as there are no means and powers within and outside the borders of Hungary that can remove him, unless a popular uprising in Hungary will move against him and his regime. And, by the same token,… Read more »
Though we discussed the Machtergreifung and the activities that followed it in school I have to admit that I repressed the memories almost completely.
A positive look at this:
Nobody in Germany but a few Neofascists cares about Versailles and what followed anymore – and of course historians which try to analyze those times.
I’m wondering how those next consultations will be received in Hungary – a lot of money thrown out the window is the interpretation of my wife …
PS:
Just read the article on this in the FT:
It’s crazy that all these works (like the products of a certain Englishman …) totally ignore that there were 12 or 15 million non-Hungarian people living in Greater Hungary who of course wanted their own states.
Do these nationalities like Croat or Slovak not count at all?
It’s only me, me, me …
That’s how Hungary looks from outside …
Wolfi, the entire Trianon discussion is not about facts, it is about a nationalist myth. Of course these treaties were unfair and were results of pressure against the countries that lost the war. From guilt to borders these treaties were unjust. But to what extent? There was no country not guilty that WWI broke out. France was even guilty as dependent Hungary. Had PM Tisza kept his earlier line of rejecting attacks against Serbia – although there was no chance that he would have been successful with that policy, since political Hungary had no chance against the Habsburg military, defence was not even a Hungarian but a “common” responsibility – Hungary might have been seen as victim of the emperor and not as aggressor. But Tisza changed his mind and wanted to enlarge his personal fiefdom within the empire. This part of Europe has highly mixed populations everywhere. There is no clear line possible where on one side – just as example – only Slovaks and on the other only Hungarians live. This makes a x-number of nation states without a high number of minorities just impossible. Drawing new borders with many enclaves and exclaves not between states that… Read more »
Thank you István for the official Fidesz line on World War I:
”There was no country not guilty that WWI broke out.”
Ignorant rubbish but rubbish implying that Austro-Hungary was as bad as everyone else back then, but not worse. The quintessential Hungarian defense is unrolled once again.
But why not look at some of the wonderful Trianon “facts”: What happened when Hungary got back, thanks to the NAZIS some of its so-called “lost territories”. Hardly had it happened but the government of HUNGARY set to deporting their “new” Hungarians in cattle cars to their deaths in Nazi occupied Poland. That certainly speaks very well for Hungarian governmental practice. It was deeply corrupt before WWI, it was unbelievably cruel before and during WWII and then you are surprised that Slavs and Romanians have little but contempt for Hungary and Hungarian government practices.
They probably feel that they can trust Orbán and his fellow Trian-onanists about as far as they could throw him.
Rubbish? ALL countries WERE guilty. Hungary WAS guilty, but also France and Russia were as guilty as Germany or Austria. All major players wanted war, none wanted peace. That makes them guilty. Orbán’s theory about the WWs as “civil wars between christians” is most idiotic nonsense. I clearly wrote about the destructive role of Tisza, in FIDESZ terms the greatest PM before Orbán. Nothing of that is even close to the official FIDESZ line. No, I am not “surprised” about the fact that nobody wanted to remain in Hungary. Didn’t suggest that either. I said the better solution would have been a federation (see United States of Greater Austria and comparable plans for further information about more intelligent ways than nationalism proved to be), “where everybody has the same rights and value regardless of language and culture” as I wrote. Pretty obviously not the description of Hungary between 1867-1918 or between 1920 and 1945. I expected that Wolfi knows what the results of forming all these nation states were, it includes Horthy, regent by the grace of the Little Entente and probably the worst mass murderer in Hungarian history. There was no need to expand to the entire 20th century,… Read more »
OK, already. I am sure we are on the same side.
Bimbi
In international politics “innocent” state/party is a very, very rare thing, Serbia did support subversive groups, Black Hand included, the British and the French readily joined the war to contain the quickly growing power of imperial Germany, and Hu was guilty on many accounts. The Orbàn regime and deplorables
– praise the Kingdom of Hu, with its oppressive and discriminatory minority polices,
– justifying their own current actions with their 2/3 supermajority,
– they want “strong national” “ethnically homogenous state” for themselves,
but decry, bitch and moan when the winners had the 2/3rd or their national states or preferential ethnic policies – liars and cheaters (and thieves) as their leader.
Maybe others already made the point. It occured to me that the “original” German traumas of the WWI defeat and the hyperinflation were a bit similar in effect to the fall of communism in Hungary, in the sense that in Hungary millions lost their jobs, identity, community in a short period of time, got worse off, there was also high inflation, general social anomia. Just when ordinary people were getting back to level of consumption they enjoyed pre-1990 (well, at least according too the statistics, obviously life was qualitatively different under capitalism and it wasn’t the same people to whom these developments happened, since many traumatized people simply died in the intervening 15 years, younger people grew up in the meantime) pretty soon came the crisis of 2008. Which to me was a similar trauma then the Great Depression was to Germans. So many Hungarian s voters were already conditioned (not least by Orban himself) to be doubtful of democracy, rule of law, the constitution of 1989, liberalism and then when the second deep crisis hit them they moved towards Orban who had anyway been saying that the “liberal” system was wrong and his proposal was… Read more »
Marty, I already pointed out to you a few days before in detail that there is no natural law that is leading to fascism.
You can’t deny that Romania shares the same end of communism and the same economic crises in even resulting in larger problems than Hungary (and now don’t tell me that you are not interested in Romania, as you said that you’re not interested in Italy a few days before). Romania is for sure not the perfect democracy and hasn’t the perfect rule of law (even in very high scoring Scandinavian countries you find things that might be improved), but where our society went down significantly Romania did not, they even made a couple of good steps to fight their problems.
That Germany was in several problems in the 1920′ doesn’t mean that Hungary had to go this way because of having several problems in the 2000′ as well. This is a simplification that doesn’t help at all, it is a just a cheap excuse for having that regime. An even cheap excuse as the national consultation is for Orbán for his “politics”.
No, it was not inevitable that Orban was going to become a fascist dictator, I am just saying that this “double trauma” (two within a generation) which was not dealt with adequately by the competitors (at least many voters did not get any answers to their issues from them) is similar and this second trauma was which allowed them to entrench their power for good.
I hate these consultations. The questions are always leading questions with one answer that they want you to pick and the other answer worded so odiously. For example maybe I do think families are important, the answer they want me to pick, and I don’t want to say “no, I hate families”, but I know that if I pick the answer they want me to pick then it’s going to turn into some gotcha, that I don’t support, like an extra tax break for the women who have four children but only if they’re
not Roma andrich enough not to need it.Sure, these questions are developed that you say YES to the dictator only. Asking you paying benefits for rich women with many children only would result in a no, everybody knows that. Anyway, also poor Roma women are income tax free with 4 children, even if they have no taxable income at all, giving that feeling to even those he doesn’t want to give a single forint. But Orbán wants to pay this present on our costs to satisfy his clientele. He needs some 40% of the votes to maintain his 2/3 majority in parliament and better to buy votes than to cheat that much within election results that people come in uprising.
The timing of our obese dictator’s “questionaires” as opposed to the ridiculous questions (“Do you believe migrants will rape your daughter? 1). Yes ). No. 3) Kill. George Soros”) is always the key point for us to think about.
He knows the economy of his crappy little state is basically knackered and unemployment is going to skyrocket. Of course, Hungary won’t be alone in suffering big time but the risk for the Dear Leader is that Orban’s nazi “ordinary Joe” sheep could be traumatised and Hungary in the region *is* alone in possessing a sizeable proportion maybe even a majority of its electorate who are simple, non-thinking morons who will believe anything their fat Fuhrer tells them.
Time for a questionaire to prepare the sheep.
Great reminder of Hitler’s propaganda skills. The one on Germany pulling out of the League of Nations and then doing so was hugely significant. That was a warning sign to all what Hitler was about. The English ignored it as they ignored the warning signals that followed. I can not deny that primary responsibility for WW2 rests with Hitler. The part played by the victorious allies in procuring a further war makes it pretty well like a joint enterprise. Having set about humiliating Germany and Austria-Hungary they cast them into economic catastrophe without a life boat. Having failed to set up any system of monitoring the terms they imposed on Germany at Versailles they also failed to maintain any credible military force to counter Hitler’s naked defiance of their agreement.
As for Trianon, Hungary could have achieved a much better deal if they had used skilled negotiators. It is difficult to exert power from a losing position. Skilled and convincing reasoning is what was needed but wasn’t deployed.
One important point to remember re the reactions in Europe to Hitler:
Nobody wanted another war! Over the centuries every generation had seen a war, whether Prussia vs Austria, Denmark vs Prussia, all the wars in the Balkan (too many to remember), the Krim, and of course France and Germany ,
So everybody (with a few exceptions like the majority of the Jews) hoped for a peaceful development and accepted some actions from the German side – because the Germans had been mistreated after WW1.
Even some Jews couldn’t/didn’t want to believe that the Nazis would be so horrible.
Again not too much OT:
My mother told me that at school she had many Jewish girls in her class – they sometimes exchanged food: Matzen for a liverwurst sandwich …
And suddenly in 1938 most of them were gone – almost the whole village of Rexingen went to Palestine.
Those Jewish families who couldn’t believe their German neighbours would treat them so badly and remained didn’t survive of course.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/escaping-the-nazis-rexingens-jews-built-new-lives-near-the-beach-at-shavei-zion/
“No one wanted another war”. I am not sure thinking started out from that position. Certainly in Britain WWI was a terrible shock, the death rate in the trenches and elsewhere could hardly be understood. The nation was shaken to its core and I am afraid there were loud and vociferous voices calling out for the punishment of the “Huns” – and they didn’t mean little Magyarország. So the Versaille discussions dragged on. We must be thankful that the same mistakes were not made after WWII (some new ones were tried instead).
Nationalistic Hungary has an iced lollipop in hell’s chance of getting Trianon rewritten, for multiple reasons, including the complete unreliability of Hungarian government. Just eat it.
Wolfi @5.47. On the origin of WW2 you have rehearsed a frequently refrained fallacious and fully discredited English explanation which they think serves to provide cover for their incompetence at the Versailles negotiations and their spinelessness in the follow up.
Nobody wants a war unless they believe they will win it or will achieve another collateral purpose. It is perfectly obvious what should have been done. It is best to prepare for war in order to prevent one.
In this case Hitler correctly assessed that Europe was a sitting target. Even if a respectable junker had been in power instead of the Austrian scum I wonder how long it might have been before they decided to take out the indolent self deluding English.
Aida, is there a misunderstanding there?
Hitler of course wanted the expansion to the East – if possible without a war, if necessary, ok he and his generals were sure they’d win. They could win against any single enemy …
But they were wrong in the long run because their enemies united in the war effort – though of course their ideologies were totally different.
It wasn’t only or even mainly the English …
Wolfi, you make two points.
1. Hitler’s miscalculation. One of the hazards of being an unscrupulous adventurer, the deal doesn’t always work as hoped.
2. No, the English were not the only lot to blame. Their sanctimonious explanation that they did not want war etc to cover up a catastrophic piece of incompetence and spinelessness is a serious windup. For my part I would be very reluctant to rehearse it save with a large health warning.
Aida,
You seem to have a serious misunderstanding about European nations. The nation on the funny-shaped island just to the left of the Netherlands is called Britain and its occupants are “British”. There, does that help?
@Aida, 6:10 am
By God, you are right, sir!
And don’t forget that Hitler himself said to his co-nationals,
“Give me 10 years and you will not recognize Germany!”
And he was right too!
Since this thread of course is strongly connected to Trianon . I wonder what would have been the reaction in Hungary if Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia and maybe even Serbia and Romania had had big fireworks etc celebrating the hundredth anniversary of their independence from Magyarization Terror? And maybe repeat these festivities every year just like the Americans do on July Fourth and of course invite the Neighbours, I think O1G and his ***expletive deleted*** etc would surely react really positively because independency is a big thing for them … 🙂 🙂 The USA still have their Fourth of July after an even longer time … Totally OT (to maybe lighten up the mood): I was in the USA for July Fourth only once – by accident. At the end of June 2006 we had the soccer world championship in Germany. Being alone one evening I went to my favourite bar for a drink – and though the sun was shining not even one other person was sitting on the terrace! I looked inside and saw all my friends watching the big tv screen … Then I immediately decided to GAFIA – went to the neighbouring travel agency and when I… Read more »
Wolfi, the 100-year-celebrations of Czechoslovakian independence happened already in 2018, while Slovakia and Croatia are way younger states of course.
https://www.euronews.com/2018/10/28/100th-anniversary-of-czechoslovakia
In Romania the Great Union Day is the day when Transsylvania joint Romania in 1918. About the centennial:
https://www.romania-insider.com/national-day-2018-events-great-union
Anyway, the Romanian parliament passed a law that June 4th would have made a national holiday as well, but has been sent to the constitutional court by the president, because he didn’t want to sign.
My point was that Trianon was the official treaty which made the new states “safe” in a way, protected by the European powers.
So they might well have fireworks etc.
Understand, but they were far from being unsafe! They already installed “their” Horthy regime in Budapest, troops from Czechoslovakia and Romania had invaded Hungary and they had support from France and Britain. Safer they’ve never been past 1920.
And, well, just look what Romania wants/wanted(?) to do. Although I could imagine that this decision in parliament wouldn’t have been taken without Orbán and his constant interference in Romania.
Thank you wolfi7777, the first point in your post above is right on the button. Well said. Let’s face it. Who can take the Trian-onanists seriously?
Glad you liked the fireworks in Florida wolfi.☝️
For me I enjoy the July 4th date as well. Naturally. The Betsy Ross flag (13 alternating red and white stripes with stars in circle in a field of blue in the upper left) goes out representing independence from the ‘men who lost America’ and then the fireworks begin. The music too that is.
July 4th is kind of an excuse to have my favorite composer Handel get played out on the day. He wrote it for George II to celebrate the end of the War of the Austrian Succession. Mr. Handel from Halle btw puts the grandeur and boom into the fireworking. He will get a pilgrimage going there soon. ☝️
https://youtu.be/Qm0ws2PZweg
Off topic in relation to our discussion of statistics used to describe economies raised by Eva the other day this report appeared in the Washington Post. https://news.immitate.com/2020/06/06/the-may-jobs-report-had-misclassification-error-that-made-the-unemployment-rate-look-lower-than-it-is-heres-what-happened-the-advocate/ The article indicated that the error likely reduced the US unemployment rate by a full 3%.
A very interesting talk with Valuch Tibor about his book about last 100 years’ history through individual histories.
https://hvg.hu/itthon/20200606_Fulke_Bizonytalansag_es_kiszamithatatlansag_az_elmult_evszazad_csak_Kadar_alatt_volt_tizenot_nyugodt_ev
Yesterday’s post has generated many comments. My hope is that readers of this post will also return to the major themes, especially with ideas as to how to challenge the Orban regime’s lies and propaganda. For example, is there evidence that any of the small anti regime printed handouts are having a positive effect? The same question may be asked about the remaining independent internet, TV and radio. Professor Balogh has given all readers a unique opportunity to not only replace lies with facts, but to suggest ways to undermine this regime. Hungarians (and others) living on ground zero (Hungary) may have some important ideas to share.
An old Yiddish proverb observed that God gave us 2 ears and only one mouth, which was a sign of the value of listening over speaking. Although not a believer, despite my great, great grandfather being a Rabbi in Hungary, I do like these proverbs.I will be listening.
Sorry for the extremely large map above.
.
Percentage of people not voting for Hitler’s Fuehrership in selected towns in August 1934.
Link in quotation marks:
“https://katapult-magazin.de/fileadmin/bilder/Karten_2018/Wahlen_in_Diktaturen7_Hochburgen__die_gegen_Hitler_als_Staatsoberhaupt_stimmten-01.png”
Eureka! Managed to draw a parallel between Orban and Hitler. Now surely he must be evil!
Na Zoliboy, not because of the parallel, the Viktor manages that being evil all by himself.
I’ve to admit the parallel is unfair on some level. The questions Hitler asked in his referendums were a clear yes or no question, just take the question in the map posted by tappanch, “do you want to transfer the constitutional rights from one position onto the other?” That is – how absurd the referendum about a already taken and implemented decision itself was – more democratic than the questions Orbán offers (and also he takes a decision first and asks later). It is easy to say “I want president and chancellor remain separate”, but would anybody say “take away money from children”? The “national consultations” are a propaganda tool, they have anything to do with democracy. Anyway, everybody who tells that Horthy was a great statesman as Orbán does gets his best friend Hitler for free. BTW when your boss will erect the first Hitler monument?
To those who read Hungarian, I recommend the linguist Sándor N. Szilágyi’s analysis of the “referendum” about “compulsory settlement of migrants”: https://www.maszol.ro/index.php/velemeny/70720-szilagyi-n-sandor-egy-tulmeretezett-kiserlet-cseppet-sem-meglep-eredmenyei . It shows very nicely what was wrong with the referendum (and also with many of the “national consultations”). Namely: the question put to the people was not a question. Beyond their “literal” meaning, utterances often have a pragmatic implication. “It’s getting dark” can actually “mean” something like “Turn the lights on!”. If a child is climbing a high tree, the parent asking “Do you want to break your neck?” is not actually asking a question or expecting an answer. By pragmatic implication, the “question” is actually a threat (“you’ll break your neck if you don’t get down at once”) or an order (“get down at once!”). And to this ironic “question”, a “yes” answer is practically impossible. The referendum of 2016, as well as the national consultations, was just very thinly veiled propaganda. And following the history of Orbán’s national consultations, we can also see a development towards “questions” which are less and less like real questions and more and more like an opportunity to show one’s obedience and loyalty. “OK, Daddy, you don’t have to say… Read more »
To tag onto many comments here:
1. Orbàn was a wannabe dictator the moment he smelled power. He’d never been a democrat or even a fair player at heart, just as a great part of the Huns.
2. In the political environment of Europe (as opposed to eg. Latin America) certain tools and methods worked for budding dictators, the fascist/ communist ones.
3. Orbàn, with only slight education and no culture, experienced how the same tools and methods worked on the job of developing a totally spacious populism and of usurling power (Simicska carried out and thought him the corruption part) – orban was still an accidental fascist.
4. Only After 2010, instead of occasionally using some such panels, the Orbàn regime embarked on a planned massive, multi proned fascist assault agains all the elements of democracy, from the Constitutional court to the media to the trade unions all the way down to elementary school curriculum. Now many elements of fascism/Horthyism were knowingly borrowed and used.