A couple of times a year, at matriculation in late spring and at the opening of schools in the fall, I am prone to complain about the insanity of certain rituals that Hungarian school authorities are unwilling to abandon. One such is the custom that girls must anxiously write their matriculation exams all decked out in sailor suits and boys must wear white shirts, jackets, and ties. Apparently, even at universities students must dress up for exams.
I don’t know why school authorities think restrictive clothing is an absolute necessity for the occasion. In fact, I would argue that wearing casual and comfortable clothes is the way to go when taking tests. As for the sailor suits, I doubt that any self-respecting 18-year-old would be caught dead in them under ordinary circumstances. I’m almost certain that they are worn only once in a lifetime. In fact, all western nations abandoned the custom at least 75 years ago, with the exception of Hungary and Japan.
Sailor suit from 1910
And that takes me to the fall and more gripes. The amount of money that families must spend on required school supplies, without which no schoolchild can learn, is staggering. I just read that the Orbán government, which hasn’t changed the family allowance in ten years, graciously agreed to cough up the sum of 26,600 forints (about $90) per child prior to school opening. According to GKI Digital, an economic think tank, it costs parents who have children entering one of the four lower grades of elementary school on average 50,000 forints ($168) per child.
In 2008, I devoted a post to the subject of compulsory school supplies for a first grader. I highly recommend taking a look at it, if for nothing else but amusement at the absurdity of the list of supplies. At that time, textbooks cost 8,000 forints and the supplies 14,000, which at the exchange rate of the time amounted to $135. This year, for the first time, textbooks are free. Therefore, the cost of supplies must have gone up considerably, by at least $33.
Another gripe of mine is the practice of “national school openings.” Each school holds one of these gatherings, at which politicians deliver boring and, for the children, often incomprehensible speeches. The great minister of human resources, Miklós Kásler, was the speaker at the Hungarian Reformed Elementary School in Kecskemét, and Zsolt Semjén, deputy prime minister and chair of the Christian Democratic Party, delivered his speech at the Benedictine Gymnasium in Pannonhalma. That these two high government officials spoke at parochial schools is quite fitting for a government that spends twice as much on a parochial school student as it does on a public school student.
So, let’s see what Dr. Professor Kásler had to say to elementary school children, as he droned on and on. “Dear students, my young friends, you have entered the gate of school, where you can gather the fruits of knowledge which generations have collected over millennia in order for us to enjoy their delights.” He had some interesting advice for the teachers too. “You are in a difficult position because in the last one hundred years of our history at least five bloody and brutal revolutions have occurred.” One is at a loss to fathom what the great amateur historian had in mind. Moreover, what do the five alleged revolutions have to do with the difficulties a teacher might encounter in the classroom? No wonder that 444 made fun of Kásler. In his final words to his young audience, he promised that “the possibility of free expression of dormant spiritual energies is ensured, its foundation is unshakable. But its quality and results do not depend on the government, but on families, educators, and the youth.” I assume that means that the government has no plans to provide substantially more money for the much-neglected Hungarian educational system.
Zsolt Semjén’s speech at the “national school opening” ceremony was also memorable. Our scholar, who was caught plagiarizing a few years back, displayed some of his vast knowledge of “alternative facts” about church history to the boys at Pannonhalma. “The age of St. Benedict was a period of Rome in decline, when military virtues had already been replaced by the cult of ‘gladiator celebrities,’ when classical Roman legal and cultural values were replaced by ‘ubiquitous deviances,’ when the family was replaced by ‘the amazing aberrations.’ St. Benedict opted for the supernatural over the unnatural.” What a remarkable retelling of the story of Saint Benedict of Nursia! His biography, which I read, made no mention of homosexuals. It was prostitutes who were engaged to seduce his monks, although naturally the attempt failed. But one of the Orbán government’s current political themes is the spread of “gender ideology” as an attack on the family. So, why not talk about homosexuals in connection with Saint Benedict?
In any case, quite independently of the nonsense politicians spout on these occasions, I see no reason to put students through this exercise when, again, parents must outfit their children in their “Sunday best.” Why don’t students start school tomorrow by simply going to their classrooms? Though, given the uptick in COVID-19 cases in Hungary, even this might not be the best idea.
While the top dignitaries were visiting elite parochial schools, the inhumane Orbán regime just halved its financial support for the Igazgyöngy Alapítvány (Pearl Foundation), which maintains schools for 650 disadvantaged children from 23 villages, mostly inhabited by the Roma. An even worse fate is awaiting Gábor Iványi’s six schools for unprivileged children in Budapest. The ostensible reason for the cutbacks is the COVID-19 pandemic. But more about this latest atrocity tomorrow.
Wow! The mental Phimosis, displayed by these burlesque official characters, must make quite an impression on the teachers, parents and students.
The remaining effort to install a realistic local school-community identity and self-respect after such a bizarre freak-show, must be enormous.
The ‘extra’ money parents get is actually nothing. They just bring forward the September payment by a few days so you get it before school starts and then they make a big song and dance about it in the media how generous they are.
“Horrors of …” Is this really the right word here?
Schoolgirls don’t wear “sailor suits” on these occasions, just white blouses and navy or black skirts, which btw used to be the coutrywide school uniform.
Uniforms are still worn in many schools in the anglo world.
Close to horrors are the issues of
– total central control over every place of learning incl. universities
– the not be so veiled and growing segregation in the edu system
– turning curriculum into a propagaplnda and brainwashig tool pushing intolerance, bigotry, submission
– dumbing down education by design and incompetence with its deteriorating results and looming horrors such as the ramblings of Turnip Semyen and Mad Kasler exemplifie.
OT.
“Investors should position for the rising odds of President Donald Trump winning re-election, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.
Betting odds that earlier had Trump well behind challenger Joe Biden are now nearly even — largely due to the impact on public opinion of violence around protests, as well as potential bias in polls, said strategist Marko Kolanovic.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-01/jpmorgan-says-prepare-for-rising-chance-trump-wins-second-term?srnd=premium-europe
A lot of ifs. The only fact they even didn’t mention: Haters are easier to be called to vote than decent people.
Just saying that the Trump has a considerable chance of reelection as of today. (And think if there was no Covid with all the chaos and economic problems, where would he be in the polls?). The Republicans just understand the psyche of the white voter so much better, the Harvard professor advisors of Biden know nothing. The Republicans have it easy though, not only the election system structurally favors them, but their opponent the Democratic party is the same clueless, elite bunch of latte sipping smarteggs who all over the world tend to lose against the right-wing. I’m terrified because I know from first hand that many average joes drinking their cheap filter coffees in diners in Wisconsin or Michigan or Ohio want leaders who can credibly stand up to China and be merciless against “thugs”. Biden doesn’t show strength, we don’t know what he thinks or wants (is he a leftist, or a pro-Wall Street person etc.) etc. etc. It’s the same issue like in the case of all left-wing campaigns of the last many years: no clear message, no enthusiasm, no leadership. Once, it would be good for the moderates to win, just once, but this doesn’t look… Read more »
Yes, it was really time for “latte sipping smarteggs”. Shows how much you are bound to reality. If you consider to think about Biden as a leftist you make me laugh. In a normal democracy Biden would be considered as a moderate conservative. In the core you just confirmed about voter behaviour what I wrote, that a message of hate brings haters to cast their votes way more easily than a decent message brings decent people to the ballots.
Emerson polling rated A- by Nate Silver says today: race is tightening (Biden leads by 2% only which is not enough because of the election system), Trump’s approval rating highest since 2016.
OH is clearly predicted to be carried by Republicans, and Minnesota may be the next red state according to 538.com. Wisconsin (Kenosha case) and Michigan are also question marks to me.
Whatever the situation, the voters must be bought to the booths, and the Dems are struggling in the rust belt.
https://emersonpolling.reportablenews.com/pr/august-2020-presidential-race-tightens-after-party-conventions
I have been posting for months that Trump has a serious shot at winning which is terrifying to me because I believe Trump is a deeply mentally ill man. One problem with polling is it assumes that if people are polled in privacy they will be honest. That is not the case with Trump, because some whites are fearful of Blacks and will not publicly or privately admit that. Trump’s racism has a deep appeal to them almost on a subliminal level. Having a second home in northern Wisconsin I can tell you many people who are not hard core Trump supporters are now very fearful of rioting in Kenosha. When it’s in Chicago, and Milwaukee it’s expected because of the Black ghettos concentrating populations, people up north write off these towns as hopeless. I am honesty more concerned about the fiscal collapse of Chicago and the fact that as of a week ago year to date the mayhem totals for Chicago were: Shot & Killed: 458 Shot & Wounded: 2277 Total Shot: 2735 Total Homicides: 500 On our disastrous fiscal situation see https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/city/depts/mayor/Press%20Room/Press%20Releases/2020/August/2021BudgetForecast.pdf The police have killed only 5 people this year. I will vote for Biden, its all… Read more »
Also Hungarian readers of this blog should be aware that there are many armed Trump supporters ready to kill for Trump. This article yesterday in a Chicago newspaper discussed their presence in Kenosha Wisconsin https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/8/31/21409330/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-ryan-balch-boogaloo-boi-jacob-blake
As I have pointed out there are numerous former US military people in these pro-Trump militias as the article points out. Very few if any were officers, but numerous ones were in the special forces and they are not a joke. They are skilled in the dark arts and younger right wingers look up to them. My daughter who is a US Army reserve Major, has told me there have been internal investigations by the Army of active duty soldiers who have relationships with militia groups.
Istvan, this is a good book. Was written just before Trump. Not sure if it’s much news for you, but it’s an interesting book nevertheless about WI. (Applies to rural Hungary as well, in many ways.)
The Politics of Resentment: Rural Consciousness in Wisconsin and the Rise of Scott Walker (Chicago Studies in American Politics)
https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Resentment-Consciousness-Wisconsin-American/dp/022634911X
The polls are all smoke and mirrors…just like the stock market. The uber rich, together with the Chinese and the Russians, can and do tilt the market averages short term.
If you have accessed the Drudgereport–11 billion hits a year–you’ll see that Trumps numbers have been moving up for about a month with no discernible reason whatever.
Massive manipulation.
Presently, the disturbances around the US is to highlight
the inappropriatnesess of a frail Biden in the Presidential chair.
All the above is prelude to the inevitable Russian break into
the polling machines in select states.
But if you insist on propping up Hillary, the lover of Huma; and Biden, who didn’t have the wherewithall to dissuade his coked-up son not to sell his name to the Ukrainians…well this is what you get. The uber boys, and their marionettes, the politicians of both sides, could not tolerate a Sanders leadership.
(Thank heaven we’ll have Covid to clean up the mess…)
Personally, from what I’ve seen about Chinese culture, it’s ok for them to rule for a few hundred years…
Japan a “western nation” ?
At least far more western than Orbánistan!
Sure, if you travel westward to reach it.
Our schools have been made a place of ideological indoctrination again the last 10 years. Therein fits the vast stupidities our high placed politicians uttered something about 5 bloody revolutions or that homosexuality caused the fall of the Roman Empire.
Anyway, the leader of the catholiban Semjén knew to report as well that people have more confidence on patriarchal schools than in secular ones. Of course he was also proud to report that the regime has built or renewed more than 3000 churches since 2010. What might pupils and parents think when they see the abandoned school buildings most children have to go to?
I recently spoke with a father of 2 school going children and he wasn’t too positive about the rising costs. Especially happy he was with the fact to buy 2 pair of street-shoes for each, one for inside, the other for outside.
@”I assume that means that the government has no plans to provide substantially more money for the much-neglected Hungarian educational system.” Absolutely correct. It is a very clear message to those who care about education in Hungary (and the masses simply don’t, they just don’t like school and learning) that they should apply to the lavishly-funded parochial schools (seriously they have 300% of the financing of the public schools er student; yes, 300% or even more, no exaggeration, it’s really insane). This is a time-honored strategy of the Southern US where public school teachers’ salary is so low now that some schools have to import temporary teachers from the Philippines. Smother the “liberal govenment schools” because they educate the minorities, and fund the elite parochial schools which educate the whites and meanwhile indoctrinate them with conservative ideology. This is a very clear policy of the Orban government. Problem is: the rural elite and middle classes agree with the policy, and – ironically – the most fidesznik part of Hungarian society is now exactly the lowest status, uneducated strata (many of the roma) who would need a much better education the most. But they don’t care about education and love Orban… Read more »
Easy Marty,
Curb your enthusiasm, got into a fit of seeping statements again?
Indeed! Any psychologist out there? It would be interesting to know more of possible the reasons of so much unfounded admiration of Orbán from someone who says he dislikes him.
I thought what I wrote was very clearly negative about the Orban system.
The Orban system is consciously destroying public education and consistently prefers the church-based education for a bunch of reasons (all in order to held Fidesz’ power network in the long run). A very significant chunk of education is now privatized to the churches who are very loyal to Orban in every way.
There is nothing positive in this story at all.
yeah right, sweepingly said you’re always sippingly negative about everything and body…
Well, there isn’t much to cheer about in the world for humanists and democrats, and hasn’t been for years.
But I guess you could be very optimistic, happy and carefree even in, say, 1937.
@Marty, 6:19 am
As it turns out, 1937 was a pretty good year to be born – if you were in the right place.
Marty, your admiration of strong Orbán and figures of his kind is obvious to me. The message arriving here is that you want a kind of strong Orbán, just with a somehow different agenda. No wonder that you have been accused to be part of the FIDESZ propaganda machine, since the wish of a different agenda is often hidden far behind the admiration of strong Orbán and weak whoever.
You misunderstand politics. People always want a strong leader, only I want a democratic one This is because a leader is by definition there to lead, to decide, to protect, to fight enemies etc. – to exercise power over the people. You only let politicians above you who deserve that power. Weaklings, submissive people who have no respect, who don’t know what they want, simply don’t deserve power according to most people. This is the nature of any politics. More importantly, though, these days the voters themselves want such a strong personality; they are fed up with wavering intellectuals who want to set up committees and write proposals and suchlike. Voters are frustrated (me to, but for other reasons than white workers), and they want action now; not never-ending procedures by elite, urban professionals who always seem to know better. The white Americans in Ohio (and elsewhere in the US) want America to be great again and stand up to China (not Russia, as Russia is simply irrelevant to most white Americans). They still want to be citizens of the most powerful nation and they don’t want to go back to the previous era (before Trump). So, either you understand… Read more »
@Marty, 6:58 am
Charming, simplistic and wrong. You ought to be able to do better than this.
Wow! “to exercise power over the people. You only let politicians above you who deserve that power.”
Power over the people or power of the people? Someone who deserves that power or who executes the power lent? Some deeper understanding of democracy needed?
Istvan, keep it simple.
The US president even if you are a US citizen can put you on a kill list or keep you indefinitely in detention if – in his sole discretion – he thinks you are an enemy combatant.
The leaders are in a position of leadership and can influence your live in a way you cannot influence the lives of others. In short, they possess power that you and non-leaders simply don’t.
Don’t over-complicate this.
My point here is that there is a concept of “desert”, so people choose among the candidates among others based on whom they think deserves such power (potentially forcing the voters to do things they would not normally want to do).
In short whom to elevate above them into a – in a democracy temporary and revocable – hierarchical position?
Did I ever say that the USA are a perfect democracy? Did I ever say the we should introduce the American political system in Hungary? Or did I ever say US voters are well-known for their good decisions? Any country where a minority of voters gets the chance to form a government has extreme deficits (where the Scandinavian model of tolerating minority governments is definitely different, since there at least short standing majorities are needed in every single case). A country where this minority tries or even worse succeeds in silencing the majority is even worse.
And to your question: “In short whom to elevate above them into a – in a democracy temporary and revocable – hierarchical position?” I can answer even short: An even intelligent as decent person that has proven to be an integer person in the offices he or she has held before and who has proven to make decisions that are well balanced for the country and not to his or her voters only. You will miss your adjectives strong or charismatic, but this is not needed for the job, just might help to be seen by voters.
Well I agree Marty the majority of the white population in the USA wants our country to be a hegemonic global power. But to be honest only a small percentage of American families are willing to see their children enter into combat around the world to ensure that hegemony. Trump himself is a foremost bullshit artist on that level, none of his children served in the armed services, nor did he. He was a draft avoider during Vietnam.
Sweeping Statements or Sipping Statements, that could be M’s question…
PS: wanna bet on it? note: I never bet!
Marty the rise of private religiously based education in the USA is not just in the south, it is in the north too. Then there are the publicly funded charter schools, many of which require students to wear school uniforms too.
Of course I have no problem with students wearing uniforms, in fact in high school I was a junior Reserved Officer Training Corp Cadet and wore an Army uniform one day a week every week. In college when I entered ROTC for real, I also wore a uniform to classes one day a week and spent several weeks each summer at an Army camp. Within days after college graduation I was commissioned as an officer and wore a uniform most days for years.
Sure, I know. But the invitation of the Philippine teachers is – as of yet – a phenomenon mostly in the South. They are paid so low (consciously) that only poor foreigners would take the job (as in the case of many jobs like agriculture or cleaning) Americans have to have an extra (sometimes two addition) job to stay afloat. This is a conscious effort to neglect the public school (in current conservative parlance “government school”) system which serves minorities disproportionately. Same logic in Hungary too.
A normal competition between parochial schools and public school would be OK, but outsourcing at this level is clearly a conscious, strategic political decision in Hungary.
In fact the parochial schools get a whopping 400% (!) from the state of the financing of the public secular schools. I think this is unprecedented.
https://index.hu/gazdasag/2019/05/08/negyszer_tobb_penz_forras_egyhazi_iskolak_allami_koltsegvetes_tanulok_diak_roma_cigany_szegregacio_elkulonites/
Not too much OT: Today we saw the effects of the horrible education system in our village. Since the Kanikula has ended and it was nice and cool we walked to the local shops for meat, vegetables and bread, looking at the neighbours’ houses. Today also garbage will collected so we saw hundreds of overflowing garbage cans where some people put everything, whether it’s glass, paper, cans or plastic – and even green stuff which would be perfect for the compost heap. We also saw the poor dogs, some on a chain less than five meters long. And don’t even think about the rotting ruins and dozens (!!!) of demolished cars sitting in the gardens, what an ugly sight. Seems we’re really lucky that our direct neighbours have different ideas, their gardens are nice looking, full of flowers, fruit trees and vegetables – we’ve already started to exchange grape jam for paprika and tomatoes and so on. Who are these other people who don’t care at all for the environment – or actually for their own environment? Weren’t they told that nature has to be preserved? My wife got so angry … And then some old stinky cars being driven… Read more »
Re: ‘So it’s back to the old class system of Horthy times?‘ Maybe even farther back to Hapsburg times???? There is so much inbred regimentation in Magyar society that still echoes back to the time. Things done by rote because that’s the way it has always been done. The Magyar reverence for the past and ‘tradition’ is admirable. On the other hand that admiration can stunt growth in the human personality to the extent that the past’s droning on and on unfortunately is so calcifying that it can only encourage a refusal and inability to take up change. The fear is palpable. It seems it even goes to a society even changing the clothes it wears as if they change the style they’ll think they’re running around naked or something. Personal view of parochial education: ‘educational’ but somewhat dangerous with its ‘inculcation’ into generally empty vessels especially when young. Thing is later on one must take responsibility to enhance the experience and experience the world so as to be able to think for oneself and take in its variety and differences. In the case of Magyar education it appears not to be conducive in providing its young students that ‘aha!’… Read more »
The partiality that is embedded in the Hungarian school system is horrible. We know that the rich parochial schools are given double support through the grace of the VM (Viktor the Miniszterelnök) but that vengeful, punitive and discriminatory measures should be woven into the system is appalling.
Why on earth is the Ministry in charge of education not running schools for disadvantaged children (all of them)? Why must Gábor Iványi take up the task of operating schools for unprivileged children in Budapest?
One returns to those fundamental questions:
Whose country is this?
Whose money runs it?
How is it that the criminal head of the government is permitted to dole out money and rewards as his perverted vision moves him?
Does he have a special mission to neglect and punish the needy?
This proud and arrogant government is a disgrace.
Short A. to fundamental Q.
It is our money that the Orbàn mafia state uses to run the country as if both were their own.
@Observer, 7:21 am
My point exactly, except that it is “everyone’s money” insofar as those in need should have access to it and not just the thieving “Me First and the Rest Nowhere” Fidesz criminals.
Maybe I should answer my own questions:
1) It is the country of the Hungarian people living here
2) The money belongs to the Hungarian people by whom it is paid or for whom it is provided (EU)
3) Because Orban is a criminal
4) It seems that he thinks he does. He does not.
Students of the film & theater university barricaded the doors of the university, protesting the cacelation of the autonomy of the university.
Will Orban send in the police to crack down on the future actors and movie directors?
https://24.hu/kultura/2020/09/01/szfe-barikad-tuntetes-lemondas/
Or some “concerned citizens” on furlough or parole will go to defend the true arts which they love just as much as soccer.
Didier Reynders
@dreynders
·
@YlvaJohansson
and I are sending a letter to the Hungarian Government recalling the importance of the integrity of the Schengen area and of applying border measures in a non-discriminatory way to all EU citizens and residents.
https://twitter.com/EU_Justice
Ylva Johansson
@YlvaJohansson
·
2/2 …Any measures that do not comply with those fundamental principles of EU law should of course be immediately retracted. We will be speaking to our respective Hungarian Ministerial counterparts shortly to request further information.
https://twitter.com/YlvaJohansson
Well done! Why can someone from Poland enter the prison with the name Hungary easier than I could as soon as I leave? Or why is a test from Slovakia valid at the border and an Austrian useless?
The Hungarian parties in Slovakia jointly oppose the closure of the Hungarian border as it is defined in Orban’s decree.
https://parameter.sk/magyar-hatarzar-az-osszefogas-az-mkp-es-hid-kozosen-keresi-meg-levelben-magyar-kulugyet-es-az
Semjen and St. Benedict….
The irony is incredible of Semjen speaking to kids at Pannonhalma. The famous Benedictine is none other than the patron saint of ‘poison sufferers’. ☝️ In Benedict’s time some monks didn’t exactly appreciate his idea of living by ‘the Rule’ that he was working on and tried to rub him out.
And here’s something especially for our trolls:
https://www.pressenza.com/2020/08/greta-the-great-is-back/
Never give up!
I wonder whether Hungarian schoolchildren will ever hear about this – or even be activists one day.
Maybe in a hundred years when climate change has reduced Hungary and the rest of the Balkan to a desert?
“I don’t know why school authorities think restrictive clothing is an absolute necessity”
You should ask this of America’s elite private schools, catholic schools and so on. They insist on a “restrictive” uniform throughout the year. These schools produce America’s leaders in business as well as politics. They also produce the better part of America’s domestically supplied professional elites.
Well many elite prep day schools here in the USA do not use uniforms. For example the Sidwell Friends School in Washington DC does not, and two of the most expensive private schools here in Chicago do not, the Latin School of Chicago, and Francis Parker School. Zoli you are assuming the private boarding schools educate the elites here and that is always not the case. There are many private day schools in large urban cities that are far more liberal than the boarding schools. In Chicago we also have public military academies run by the US Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corp. Students in those schools wear ACUs every day except one, when they wear a dress uniform. I have taught classes at one, The Chicago Military Academy at Brownzeville https://www.chicagomilitaryacademy.org/ . Of course the students attending the school I taught at were primarily low income students whose families wanted structure for their children. When I have taught at the school I am in my full dress uniform with my ribbons even though I am retired which is permitted for retired officers providing instruction at military academies. I have taught cadets map orientation classes and the use of… Read more »
Perhaps some private schools do not impose a uniform. Most Catholic schools do, and those schools make up a large share of all private schools. A large number of secular private schools also impose a uniform. And I do not believe it is in any way just a way to signal elitism or traditions that die hard. I do believe there is something to it, in regards to being a component of providing a structured environment, which it turn leads to more successful individuals later on in life. If it were not the case, people would not be wasting their money on it.
And yes, public schools and liberal urban private schools also provide significant numbers of elites, but these schools produce far more as a percentage of kids attending. Point is that Eva’s disdain for some structure may not have logical merit, just ideological.
Zoli you really are an a*hole!
Those rulkes re clothing etc are mainly used to select pupils from the ruling class – average joes can’t afford these schools.
Could we now return to the situation here?
Well off Fidesz honchos anyway send their children to schools outside underdeveloped Hungary
Zoli
So you can make sense if you pull your head out … Why not do it more often?
CHANNELING ORBANISM “Just-sayin’-Marty” (JSM) is getting revved up again: “The Republicans just understand the psyche of the white voter so much better…” What a waste of JSM’s occasional flickers of insight (or insider information) that JSM is a dysphoric fatalist whose only substantive message is “Be Bad, like the bad guys, ‘cause it’s the only way to get through to the Ojoes.” But, to look squarely at the mote in our own eyes, how many of us secretly cheered the Lincoln Project attack ads, so frustrated were we with Trump’s unstoppably escalating abominations? I admit that I did. But now I’ve come to my senses and recognized that these are symptoms of the (contagious) disease, not the cure. (And I suspect that even our much more innocent nightly Colbert Catharsis may be eroding our psyche too.) Mocking and villainizing are just steps along the same continuum (downward). If we are different from O & T we have to show it, not ape them. [Sorry for the OT post. Re school costumes: They date from before the Orbanian crash-dive in education, so it seems to me they can hardly be either causal or symptomatic. If Hungary could once again produce von Neumanns and… Read more »
Stevan
You’re talking philosophy which is largely useless in politics. You have the right to sit on your high moral grounds and admonish the not so pure who happen to do the rough parts, but I don’t appreciate such a position.
You don’t seem to have understood the point either…
I understand your position to be that the “mocking and ..are just steps along the same continuum (downward) “, ie. reprehensible, and that “we are different..” ie. we should not do any of these. Good you didn’t mention turning the other cheek.
Hence I stand by my comment above.
Schools that require the use of uniforms, burlesque political appearences, occult religious rituals and historistic mysticism – serve one purpuse and one purpose only: To groom the growing generations into accepting abuse and violation as a fundamental condition of social life.
Not if they’re giving them a real education along with the haloween costume. Hungary has the costume but not the content. Which is the real problem?
But they can’t give them any “real” education for anything beyond the narrow national framework, which as you know is designed to ward off any changes to the 1920´s state of mind.
Stevan I liked your contribution very much, it is good.
“Be Bad, like the bad guys, ‘cause it’s the only way to get through to the Ojoes.”
What if 30% of the voters like Orban’s art but don’t want to vote him for many different reasons like embezzlement, oppression or some other underground thing? I say hypothetically the Hungarians educate themselves to be Nazis but don’t want thieves. Even though a Nazi robs you of your air, your thoughts rob you of your thinking. But that is probably too high for everydayjoe. In any case, your contribution gives air to think, also the reference to Trump is remarkable here there are clearly parallels. The population has too much nationalism in its blood. They can’t even like each other.
OT, but – Next week in Vilnius, Svetlana Tikhanovskaja will have a face-to-face meeting with the Prime Minister of Norway.
Finally a substantial post-Soviet politician, making an entry with a new East European democratic agenda.
I am circumspect of Svetlana Tikhanovskaja because she has made overtures to Putin, to attempt to keep hands off of Belarus and they are not working. Speaking to Euronews, Tikhanovskaya emphasized that the primary responsibility for the future of Belarus lies with the Belarusian people, but did not rule out foreign help. “If we need international mediation in the negotiations, we, of course, see Russia as one of the participants in this process,” she explained. “We are friends with Russia.” Speaking to the European Parliament, she stressed that the Belarus people support a “peaceful revolution” that is “neither pro-Russian nor anti-Russian,” and “neither anti-European Union nor pro-European Union.” Given Putin’s explicit support for Alexander Lukashenko because they both run Mafia states as does Orban she has exhibited a complete lack of understanding of the very nature of the current Russian government. To be honest her husband Sergei Tikhanovsky was much more explicitly in opposition to what is called the Union State which is a bogus an international organisation consisting of the Russian Federation and the Republic of Belarus. Citizens of both states are guaranteed the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the other party. For instance, Belarusian citizens can travel freely in Russia, and have the right to settle… Read more »
You could be right, and that would fit well with a cold war hardline policy.
I think it’s too early to conclude anything, since all sides are hoping time will work for their interests. The Russians and the Poles hope Trump is elected again. Most of EU wants to see Biden win.
But in the meantime, diplomacy on words seems the only peaceful option for the Belarusians and consolidating connections with the Baltic/Scandinavian friends of the isolated state could turn out to be very useful.
Oh, dear oh dear. School uniforms. Fascinating to read the contributions. There are many sound reasons for wearing them. There is only one with any weight against. Affordability. The reasons for are so overwhelming that it should be possible to deal with affordability. I hope I can be forgiven for not spelling out the obvious.
i very much look forward to tomorrow for Eva’s substantive review.
I take it, school as an integral part of the local (and democratic) civic community is out of the question?
Michael, the decision on uniforms would normally be that of the school. How that decision is made is for the school. There are many ways. My point is that deciding to require the wearing of uniforms should always be welcome.
My sister is married to an Englishman and their children went to schools in Germany and in Britain.
Even though he had a very good job she was always complaining about those ridiculous “uniforms” – which had to be exchanged almost every year because children are growing. And since she has a son and a daughter there was no way to give the stuff to the younger sibling … 🙂 🙂
She also gave away/sold things second hand and in the end bought second hand clothes.
If you look at this reality it gets obvious that only “rich” people can afford this idea of uniforms – average joes just don’t have the money!
PS:
You (and your children if they are not crazy …) don’t want want to wear these uniforms outside school so you need other clothes as well.
So this is another sure sign of a class-oriented society – unless the state pays for these clothes and finances them by raising taxes on the rich.
But that’s not the idea behind those systems …
It is a controversial topic school uniforms or not. In Germany there is a mania among students, it is the brand clothes. If you don’t wear a brand you are nothing. There are also students who take away other students’ jackets because they like them. When we still went to school there was no such thing. I heard about terrible incidents that even led to the arming with irritant gas. Uniforms would defuse this. On the other hand, we know the uniform only in a bad light.
Many believe that the current brand-discrimination among school children in EU began in the 70’s after the introduction of commercial tv-marketing and the resulting competition between “cheap” supermarket clothes vs. established more expensive brands which, as a reaction, put little green crocodiles and other logos on the chest area and pockets, in order to stimulate brand-fixation.
I doubt that in the 70’s there was no such thing at our school at that time. I got the stories about it from a student who was born in 1978. Ergo it must have been the 80s.
I was married to a shool teacher at the time. In ’76 wearing brands as a condition for being accepted socially was recognized as a problem in her school district, which the teachers (controversially) were instructed to bring up during the quarterly consultations with the parents.
The reason for this being that some students were nicknamed with the names of supermarkets.
Michael, maybe you are right there – though of course “discrimination by clothes” might have been a point before then.
I went to school in the 50s, went to university in 1962 and never had “special clothes” or even brands like Levi’s.
As students it was kind of normal for us to show your rebellious spirit by wearing cheap (and/or crazy …) stuff.
Absolutely! When I went to school in the 60’s, things like the retailored and inherited clothes (and shoes) (which almost every child in our neighborhood wore) were objects of scrutiny. Also the level of sportiness of gym-clothes were a distinguishing factor.
Wolfi, I started this by saying the affordability is the only issue and it is an issue. The arguments in favour of school uniforms are well known and much rehearsed so I hope I can be forgiven for not over old ground.
Michael, schools are administered in a variety of ways. The fee paying schools are administered as provided in the setting up arrangements. Those maintained by religious orders are administered by the leaders of the religious order. Those maintained by the local authority/state are administered by those who own it or who are in charge of the rules according to how they operate. In principle it is of course sound practice to listen to parents. It must be remembered that few of them have any useful expertise in how to run schools. Pupil wishes are fairly useless due to their lack of maturity or experience. Those who might impose their will are those with the loudest mouths. Those more average may need protection from them. If paying lip service to pupils‘ views on marginal issues helps to run the place and helps with pupil development, by all means. At my boarding school we had weekly film shows chosen by the staff. We said we would like to chose the movies. We got a different diet of films but not all were very popular because the boys were more conservative than the more radical film buffs.
Exactly! And the fact that such a decision lies with “the school” as a separate institutional entity, shows that “the school” is far from being integral with the surrounding communites, and equally far from being a democratic institution.
If “the school” was an integrated democratic institution, such a decision would lie with the users, i.e. the parents and students and the tax and tuition payers – not the employees and publicly appointed administrators.
The problem with some of these uniforms, especially for girls, is that they are hideous. The ones, for example at the Hungarian Reformed Kecskemét Elementary School, where Kásler droned on.
It’s hard to find an uglier uniform than this.
https://img4.hvg.hu/image.aspx?id=fd59b6d7-fd3d-4579-a2ad-950d67e29ddf&view=b2dea50f-cee1-4f6e-b810-034566fbfb2e
Eva, I am sure you have been spared sight of the girls in their uniform at the Cheltenham Ladies College, one of the best girls schools in England. I am sure it would not hold them back from achieving great results and following great careers.
Discipline and putting up with unreasonable rules and practices tend to make for great education. It gets pupils to make early familiarity with life as they will live it.
The rationale of the ugly uniforms in Cheltenham is that it makes the girls very unattractive to predators and also they remain easily recognisable in the town.
Unbelievable!
My grandmother had collars (meticulously ironed and starched) and Spencers like that from her youth, which she kept far away at the bottom of a deep and heavy drawer.
I can’t imagine the girls’ mothers had any say about those uniforms.
That is really ugly, that was already out of fashion in 1920. I have not found anything uglier on the net. Even in North Korea they have nicer school uniforms. I’m sure there are children who find it annoying. If you find yourself ugly, you become submissive? Maybe that is the purpose.
Uniforms limit personal expression.
Michael, there is a time and a place for most things. Personal expressions is no different. Learning when and when not to is very important to learn the soonest.
Isn’t it as if girls are brought up to stand “behind the stove” and that what their father says is done? Because the mother also does what the father says and it has always been so. And boys go to work and screw and glue. That is the social cliché. While this attitude is slowly disappearing in Germany! it is being revived in Hungary. “there is a time and a place for most things. Personal expressions is no different.” I would consider that outdated or a bit quirky. Personal development begins after birth and in the best case never ends. Of course you can nip it in the bud just like in earlier times. Only that it is mentioned once …
Don, but even in Germany there still are large handicaps for young people from “lower class” families. Just found this (sorry, only in German)
https://www.bento.de/future/studium-wer-als-arbeiterkind-studiert-hat-viele-nachteile-a-ec84607a-c942-4d7f-a837-2dc5a1d3d4cb#refsponi
Only 27% of workers’ children start an academic education compared to 79% of the children of people who went to university themselves!
And I know that these young ones aren’t necessarily more intelligent.
My favourite example is a school friend of mine who grew up in a neighbouring village as the son of a war widow, a nice but also simple woman. We’ve been in contact for over 60 years – now he’s a retired biology prof …
Thanks wolfi very interesting I also come from a working class family. Imagine if somebody would write in Hungary, support is offered for equal opportunities. That would be like Hungary going to Mars in 2022. The former is completely unlikely.
Don, I got involved in these great exchanges because of school uniforms. The feminist ideological aspects are not topics on which I can contribute. I think that in the millions of years of human history the family structure had undergone many changes. Whilst the one I grew up with has been discouraged it persists with those lucky enough to afford it, I very much doubt if the heated controversy we have had on this for sixty years has been worth it. It has produced a generation or two of highly competitive women many of whom have been successful in many ways. I congratulate them. Many people find the more old fashioned now passé ladies rather more agreeable. Diversity could accommodate us?
Are you satirical or serious?
Michael and Don, no more please on girls in ugly uniforms. Also, please please not on female roles.
I did not force anyone into ugly uniforms Aida.
Why not?
Girls/women come out of schools and educations, fully qualified. Yet they seem to automatically accept economic discrimination through the systems of “men’s wages” and “women’s wages”.
I can’t see what uniforms have to do with learning.
But I see how they work for submission.
In history, clothing has always played a major role. Only the Orbanists were allowed to live out the colors. The “simple man” wore brown or grey and more was not allowed.