On October 22, the governments of Brazil, Egypt, Hungary, Indonesia, Uganda, and the United Sates co-sponsored a virtual gathering for a multinational ceremonial signing of the Geneva Consensus Declaration, which, according to the press release, will “further strengthen the coalition to achieve (1) better health for women, (2) the preservation of human life, (3) strengthening of family as the foundational unit of society, and (4) protecting every nation’s national sovereignty in global politics.” Thirty-two countries signed the Geneva Consensus Declaration. For the most part, these countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Sudan, South Sudan, and Libya, suppress women-led protest movements and oppress women. Only two countries in the European Union signed the declaration: Poland and Hungary.
The Geneva Consensus is an anti-abortion document, as U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar made abundantly clear. They consider the formation of the multinational group one of President Trump’s great achievements since he “mounted an unprecedented defense of the unborn abroad.” The 32 signatories “reaffirmed that there is no international right to abortion, nor any international obligation on the part of states to finance or facilitate abortion.”
Hungary’s co-sponsorship of the Geneva Consensus, together with the Polish government’s decision to further tighten the country’s already extremely strict abortion laws, naturally stoked fear among Hungarians that perhaps the Orbán government is thinking about following the Polish example. But, as HVG pointed out, the Hungarian government, aside from one short Facebook note by Katalin Novák, minister of family affairs, is not bragging about its co-sponsorship of the Geneva Consensus Declaration. Domestic commentators agree. Moreover, Katalin Novák confirmed that the government has no intention of reexamining the country’s abortion laws. I’m sure that Orbán is fully aware of the possible repercussions of such a move.
The Polish example shows that governmental interference in women’s reproductive rights is less and less tolerated even in a country that is considered to be deeply religious. It should be noted, however, that religious engagement in Poland has weakened significantly in the last decades. By now, 34% of Poles are “uncommitted,” meaning that they call themselves Catholic but are not religiously active. The Church’s hold on the population is waning. “The trend is not dramatic or comparable to the processes taking place in Western Europe over the last half century. Yet a consistent decline has been noticeable since the beginning of the 21st century.” This is especially true among the 25-34 age group, in which more than half of the respondents are religiously uncommitted or don’t identify with any religion, and just 17% are strongly or moderately committed.
The ultra-conservative PiS politicians ignore this trend toward secularization, especially on the part of those who are most affected by the Draconian abortion laws and the government’s rigid ideological attitudes. According to Gazeta Wyborcza, support for PiS fell sharply, from 39% to 26% in one month, with the result that Jarosław Kaczyński’s party is barely ahead of Civic Coalition’s 24% and Szymon Hołownia’s movement (Poland 2050) with 13% support.
The current abortion law was born in 1993. At the time, the government considered it a compromise because it allowed for three exceptions: if the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest, if the life of the mother was in grave danger, and if the fetus was severely and irreversibly damaged. As András Domány, a Hungarian journalist who lives in Poland, explains, three years ago a group of zealous PiS politicians concluded that citing the fetus’s condition as a reason for performing an abortion was “unconstitutional.” The Constitutional Tribunal, however, ignored the case until now, when Kaczyński, after joining the government, brought up the subject and most likely instructed the court to rule on the case. For Kaczyński, the severity of a newborn’s physical or mental damage is irrelevant, “as long as there is enough time for them to be christened.”
West European papers are, of course, full of stories about the cruelty of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal’s ruling and the Catholic Church’s support of it. At the same time, the independent Hungarian media are reporting horrifying details of what’s going on in Poland. Far-right football hooligans have physically attacked peaceful women, and the government has threatened to call out the military police against the women. And, most horrible of all, the Hungarian independent media say, is reading in Magyar Nemzet that “the decision is final as long as the constitution is in force.”
The all-powerful Kaczyński has warned protestors that “there will be many victims of these demonstrations,” which may mean that he is ready to instruct the police to use lethal force against those who are on the streets protesting his government’s treatment of women. In his opinion, there is “total religious tolerance” in Poland, but “the only moral system known in Poland belongs to the Church, and its rejection means nihilism.” The demonstrators’ goal is the destruction of Poland, he claims. Their victory would end the “history of the Polish nation.” The chairman of Civic Platform, Borys Budka, asserted that Kaczyński’s words were a call for civil war. He added on Twitter that “no one’s hands will tremble when the time comes, and he will have to face the judgment of the court.”
The government papers in Hungary stand by the Polish government. They focus their reporting on attacks on churches and welcome the fact that “the conservative Christian Poles have had enough of the destruction and have organized groups to defend their churches,” which resulted in violence at several locations. The activists are described as far left, while the defenders of the churches are “patriotic groups.” One of these groups is called the National Guard, whose members were reinforced with football hooligans.
We should have known that, sooner or later, we would encounter George Soros’s name in Poland. And indeed. A Catholic internet site “knows that the pro-abortion movement is also supported by American billionaire George Soros, who in Ireland financially supported a referendum on the issue of abortion. He is now trying to do the same in Poland.”
For the time being, PiS politicians are in a combative mood, but there might be a change in attitude, because the demonstrations are not restricted to larger cities. They are taking place even in villages. As opposed to the government propaganda, not just “liberals” or “far-left activists” are demonstrating but many Catholics and even some PiS voters as well. The incredible drop in support might make Kaczyński realize that his latest brainstorm has backfired.
A comprehensive, but tragic post tonight. The fusion between a certain self proclaimed religious dogmatism and dichotomous political thought is in direct opposition to all the moral and political lessons learned in human history. The recent abortion policy changes in Poland not only threaten the minimal rights of women, they threaten the very foundations of democracy.
Interesting to hear the Polish government arguing that the “the only moral system known in Poland belongs to the Church…” This regime has forgotten where that sort of reasoning leads. Obviously, they do not count non Christian Poles as “true” Poles, let alone that large group of nominal Catholic Poles who do not follow the current church teaching
regarding abortion or say equal rights for LGBT human beings..
What is truly appalling is that the current and/or proposed changes in Polish law regarding outlawing abortion in cases of rape/sexual abuse, let alone severe impairment to the fetus etc are -in my opinion- profoundly immoral. Perhaps if men had to carry to a full term a severely impaired fetus, such policies would not exist. The Polish regime is keeping good company when one looks at the signatories of the Geneva Declaration.
President of Poland appeared to back away tonight from his support of changes to abortion law prohibiting abortion of any fetus including those deemed severely impaired. I hope this is true although it will not change the court decision. As important, it shows what people power (actually women power) can do! Sadly, as Professor Balogh anticipated, some women have been attacked by the regime’s football thugs.
“The Polish example shows that governmental interference in women’s reproductive rights …”
General question, not specifically about abortion or reproduction: how do we know anybody or anyone actually have any kind of rights? I mean, the former prime minister of the the nation of Malaysia just said that Muslims have the right to kill millions of French people over alleged past misdeeds…
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/muslims-france-malaysian-pm-mahathir-mohamad-macron-charlie-hebdo-b1424838.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/30/mahathir-mohamads-abhorrent-comments-on-nice-terrorist-attack-condemned-by-australian-pm
For years highly educated young people have been leaving Hungary in droves.
Therefore, we all know by now what purpose women have for O1G.
A free decision for the well-being of the mother does not fit into this dictatorship. Oh sorry, illiberal democracy.
for O1G – 🙂
It is worth noting that Polish are really extremely religious, especially compared to Hungarians. I’ve known Polish people from Warsaw who work for a big multinational company, came to Hungary for a few days for business related reasons and went to mass every day while in Hungary. It was a group 4 colleagues on a business trip and all went to mass. This would be inconceivable for Hungarians, not even the most religious KDNP people (the Catholic faction within Fidesz) go to mass everyday in rural Bács-Kiskun or district 12 of Buda. For Poland Catholicism is of course part of being Polish because it differentiates them from the dreaded Russians (Ukrainians, Belorussians). The issue with such demonstrations is that parties like PiS and Fidesz depend on rural voters and they are OK with urban people demonstrating because they are anyway not their voters. The problems for Kaczinsky or Orban start only if these demonstrations start to ‘contaminate’ or ‘infect’ he minds of their rural, conservative electorate, especially their ‘firewall’ regions. Unfortunately, this is unlikely just as in Budapest the SZFE demonstrations, CEU demonstrations etc. have (had) essentially zero effect on voters in Hajdu-Bihar or Vas counties. The left-wing/liberal politicians must… Read more »
Marty, please!
Didn’t you see the figures in Eva’s (as usual very good and fact-oriented) article re the percentages of “religious” people?
In most of civilised Europe religion is no longer important.
Again the situation in Eastern Europe (please don’t give me the cr*p about East Central Europe …) reminds me of the situation in West Germany 50 or rather 70 years ago when the ruling christian fascists aka the CDU defended their abortion law – the (in)famous §218 – which they had inherited from the Nazis btw.
And then came the change – the Social Democrats together with the Free Democrats got a majority and Willy Brandt was elected chancellor.
Look up the numbers re religious beliefs and you’ll see that “the believers in stupid fairy tales” are in a minority everywhere now.
PS:
I have to look up the famous letter by Einstein where he used that expression the religion, but now I have to help my wife with baking, cooking, doing the dishes etc …
Found Einstein’s letter from 1954:
In the letter, written in his native German, Einstein takes issue with the belief in God.
“The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses,” he writes. “The Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends.”
It continues: “No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can [for me] change anything about this.”
That letter btw was sold for almost 3 million $ a few years ago …
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46438116
Totally OT:
About 20 years ago I visited an exhibition on the private life of Albert in the Museum of Natural history in Manhattan and was really moved by the many pieces from his possessions that were shown.
And then I also learned that until his death he wrote all letters in German – official stuff in the USA was then translated by his secretary.
Really moving after all that Germany had done to him and his people.
wolfi, some countries are very secular, some are not. The US has many really religious citizens and that will not change. The Middle-East or South-East Asia (India, Indonesia etc.) are also full of religious people too etc. Poland is similar to them in this respect. But Romania is also very religious in my experience.
It’s not inevitable at all that countries become more secular over time.
Especially, if religion is needed for some people’s identity (because the population is very mixed ethnically or language-wise etc.) or as a substitute because of a lack of proper state, social institutions religion will thrive.
Marty, wtf!
Didn’t you read Eva’s article???
“the 25-34 age group, in which more than half of the respondents are religiously uncommitted or don’t identify with any religion, and just 17% are strongly or moderately committed …”
That’s Poland’s future, not the oldtimers who can’t manage the new world (order 🙂 🙂 ), things like internet etc.
Another Marty nonsense. Rural Americans are religious and that “will not change.” The number of churchgoers in the United Change has been decreasing steadily. Of course, it will change. Everything changes. Nothing is written in stone.
Eva it is probably more nuanced than just saying the number of church goers in the USA is declining steadily which is basically true. See https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/. Correspondingly there has even been a decline in the numbers of evangelical Christians as a percentage of the total population in the USA. But in terms of the raw numbers of evangelical Christians in the USA those numbers have remained steady since at least 2009 according to Pew report. The situation of the Catholic Church in the USA in terms of even attendance at mass once a month has deteriorated. The driver has been in my opinion are the sex scandals that have ripped though many dioceses in the USA and the failure of the Church to effectively address this nightmare. On the aspect of abortion and the potential of a child being born with what Eva’s post calls a “fetus” that is “severely and irreversibly damaged.” Is not as simple as it is posed in your essay Eva. It is based on Amniocentesis and Chorionic Villus Sampling (CVS). The results generally are provided to families in terms of the odds based on test results of severe disabling conditions for the baby. The debate… Read more »
It is called an embryo during the first eight weeks of pregnancy and fetus after that. Embryo, according to the dictionary, “is a collection of cells that has developed from the fertilized egg before all the major organs have developed.” I don’t think that doctors can detect sever and irreversible damage in an embryo bu I doubt it.
Using Amniocentesis and Chorionic Villus Sampling (CVS) they can with a measurable statistical probability that is also given to families and women that have the testing done. CVS can be done as early as 10 weeks.
Separation of state and belief is a high value in Europe since the French Revolution. Where this had no influence societies were left behind and still are if they did not change from own initiative. That Poland is no on a way backwards has nothing to do with the rational arguments you try, but by the ideology of hate the regime promotes and its relative success (they aren’t that all-mighty as Orbán) is that they combined their ideology with a lot of benefits for ordinary people – exactly those left behind by FIDESZ. This is the main reason why Poland and Hungary are comparable to some extent, but for sure not completely. That the influence of the church in Poland is extreme high is not new, more than twice the percentage defines themselves as believers in any religion, practising that believe seem to be about 8 times more than Hungarians (again percentage, since comparing absolute numbers would be ridiculous seen the way larger population of Poland). But even in Poland believers are not content with this ruling of the constitutional court, if you read what Éva wrote members of the ruling party are among the protesters as well! And all… Read more »
On the subject of baking, I would like to remind of what Mihaly Varga was given last week. And he ate it.
I find that tasteless in every way.
Marty, for Pete’s sake. Just because you met four Poles from Warsaw who went to church every day you come to the conclusion that the Poles are very religious. As you can learn from polls that religiosity is becoming less fervent than before. Especially among the younger generation. It is inevitable.
It was an example, an anecdote, not a poll.
Wikipedia is very clear that the Poles compared to Hungarians (or to any Western or North American nations actually) are very religious. Poland is an outlier, an unusual phenomenon in Europe.
In 2012, 42% of Poles attended mass at least once a week and only 8% said they never attend mass. 70% go to Easter Confession? 83% fast on Good Friday?
Etc. etc.
I’m not saying Catholicism cannot or won’t decrease (it will probably) but it is apparently a very slow process in Poland, with this speed it might take 50-100 years to get to Western levels.
Of course not all observant Catholics are PiS voters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Poland
“It was an example, an anecdote, not a poll.” No, it wasn’t. You drew far-reaching conclusions on that basis. Nobody said that the number of the religious folks in Poland is not higher than in Hungary and therefore I don’t know what you are arguing about.
How on earth do you know that it will take the Poles 50-100 years to get to the Western levels? Do you have some magic instrument at your disposal?
Your view on the inevitability of younger people becoming more and more secular is in my opinion not historically based Eva. In the USA we events like the great revivals where younger people flocked to religion. The growth of Islamic fundamentalism in numerous areas of the world also has taken place among younger people.
Nothing is inevitable except for death eventually. It is also completely possible we will see growth in western Christianity in economically more developed societies as many people attempt to come to grips with the ecological disasters that are impacting the earth.
Islamic fundamentalism is an ideology exactly as Orbán’s fake christianity is. It is all about power and not about the religion they abuse. Not at least that these ideologies are in sharp contrast what the religious leaders preach. That youth with no or hardly any chance tends to radical ideologies is not new at all. This doesn’t make them religious in the usual sense of the word, even if their ideology is abusing the name of a religion.
Religions were invented to explain those things humans had no answer for. Seen the current and future ecological disasters we know the answer, so no god is needed to explain global warming for example (otherwise it would be very easy to ask him to chill down the sun a little bit). Of course some deniers might take that road, but since most people know that the world isn’t flat and evolution is a fact this is not very likely.
Isn’t the concept of mysterious, intangible dark matter and dark energy quite similar to good old-fashioned notions of invisible spirits that affect the material realm?
Additional remark to the Great Awakening. It was a revolutionary movement against the established order. No wonder that young people participated in the movement in drives. Don’t expect the same in case of an extremely conservative Polish Catholic Church.
We are no longer in the 18th century. Moreover, the trend is observable in Poland, Hungary, the United States, and scores of other western countries.
Who does the Polish Constitutional Court represent? The Polish people, or the Polish men?
>> https://trybunal.gov.pl/o-trybunale/sedziowie-trybunalu
>> 15 judges. Only two women.
Who does the Polish government represent? The Polish people, or the Polish men?
>> https://www.premier.gov.pl/en.html
>> 21 ministers. Only one woman.
Who does the Polish Constitutional Court represent? The Polish people, or the Polish men?
Who does the Polish government represent? The Polish people, or the Polish men?
Well there you have it – Misogyny by law and religion united!
All right-wing national “leaders” use the same political tools that only cause the worst in people. The tools are hatred against non-white men and all women allegedly in defense of the culture of faith. They need Neanderthals in times of rocket technology and they find them. Stupid hating people who consider themselves a culture.
„Polish Society of Constitutional Law: Constitutional Tribunal’s ruling on abortion law was issued by a body composed of 3 individuals who are not judges and are not authorised to adjudicate. This body made an unjustified and unilateral interpretation of the Constitution which did not take into account other values inherently linked to human dignity and underpinning fundamental rights and freedoms.“
http://konstytucyjny.pl/zarzad-polskiego-towarzystwa-prawa-konstytucyjnego-krytykuje-rozstrzygniecie-tk-w-sprawie-aborcji/
More unfortunate.
All rightwing (and leftwing) dictators are in alliance with Putin.
Dictators Internationals!
Licencing the Kremlin’s tools.
Re: All rightwing …
I mean that the Poles are not good friends of Putin but Poland is not yet a real dictatorship like Hungary. But the tools are the same.
Polish Constitutional Court: 15 judges, only two women.
Polish government: 21 ministers, only one woman.
Not that women can’t be playing along with patriarchists as well, but at least these institutions would be a bit more credible if they wouldn’t so obviously represent the interests of men.
A fine example of V4 (CEE) tokenism. Hungary is in the same league, of course. Tokenism is alive and well in the Karmelita.
A few years ago, one could see on television, anti-abortion activists protesting in front of abortion clinics. It never failed. Most of them were men.
Your are correct there are many religious men pontificating to women about abortion in the USA. There are none the less women who are opposed to abortion in the USA. There are many Native American women who oppose it because how how the US the Bureau of Indian Affairs Health promoted sterilizations and see it as way to continue the destruction of native people. On the history of sterilization see https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-history/.
By the way not all of the Native American women opposed to abortion are Christian there are some who practice animism who are opposed to it. There are also Native Women who are supporters of abortion rights because in particular Native Women face rape at higher levels than any other women in the USA. See https://www.hcn.org/articles/tribal-affairs-why-native-american-women-still-have-the-highest-rates-of-rape-and-assault .
Reminder: several decades ago the extreme rhetoric of the anti abortion zealots incited the murders of six gynecologists who performed abortions, the murderers claimed they were “saving lives” in line with the antiabortion propaganda.
I’ve told the story before – it’s not only abortion. In the 60s a German doc was accused and they wanted to send him to jail for sterilizing married women who came to him with their husbands and said. We still want to have sex, but I can’t take contraceptive pills etc, we already have enough children – please help us. Of course the relevant paragraph in our German law was a “leftover” from the Nazis and used by the christian fascists in the CDU. We, the Humanist Student Union, invited him to talk at my university – he didn’t ask for too much money, just to pay his travel costs. The Audimax was filled – I don’t remember how many tickets I sold (as a mathematician I did the financial side of our group), but must have been around a thousand. After his first trial he of course went to the higher court – and then the christian fascists were thrown out of government, Willy Brandt became chancellor and there was an amnesty for “crimes” like this. 51 years ago … And the infamous paragraph 175 that sent gays to prison was also deleted … So how long will… Read more »
Thanks Wolfi for your historical perspective.
Was that the same sort of social changes that result in the horror story that is Helmut Kentler?
https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-authorities-placed-children-with-pedophiles-for-30-years/a-53814208
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-allowed-pedophiles-to-foster-children/a-53839291
Furthermore was that also part of the same social changes that result in the well known low birth rate of Germany, which basically means that Germany and the German people has no real future. And this is the sort of thing you champion, social self-destruction?
Helmut Kentler was an ugly person – btw a prominent protestant Christian too.
Yes, it’s a kind of horror that they let him practice so long but it’s nothing new, I’m sorry.
The catholic priesthood has been doing this for hundred of years.
Luckily for some people in Germany eg the laws were changed, the period of limitation for pedophile crimes is now much longer.
Except he was celebrated a lot whilst he was alive. Including by the Humanist Union (maybe that makes him more of a humanist). That’s far from being ugly.
http://www.humanistische-union.de/publikationen/mitteilungen/hefte/nummer/nummer_detail/back/mitteilungen-202/article/nachruf-auf-helmut-kentler/
RMW
This shocking episode just points out that one should not apply any idea or ideology without studying, testing and peer review, and, on social issues, public discussion. This applies to old religions just as well as to fancy new ideas from any political corner.
Mr Kentler was already regarded as a relevant expert. Furthermore, this was all taking part as part of the sexual liberation movement of the times.
The “Geneva Consensus Declaration”, a name now doubt selected by Kansas’s own Mike Pompeo, to imply Peace, Unity and a Clarion call to like minded nations…
As Prof. Balogh well recognizes it is nothing but a call for Kontrol, Kontrol, Kontrol over the nations whose (typically all-male) “leaders” have so bravely endorsed it, including Weak Viktor Orban representing the Hungarian Dictatorship, hand in hand with Mohammad Bone Saw, the de facto dictator of Saudi Arabia and the dogma-crazed leader of poor Poland Jarosław Kaczyński, a slave to the imagined delights of the Virgin Mary. Cynical, sad, disgraceful. Pathetic Viktor Orban.
PIS is the best current example of the “clerical fascists” and their goals: “there’s only one moral system in Pl..” and it is what they say ot is and if someone protests there will be victims, many of them …
Religion, a debilitating ie. socially detrimental concept by itself, is also often used for nefarious purposes and always exploited in politics.
It should be banned from politics and should be confined strictly to the private sphere and financing. These borders should be monitored and guarded to prevent the nurturing of political extremism under the guise of religion, eg. the moslem madrases.
The madrassas, yes. First we need to get the word through to Amy Coney.
Economy.
GDP.
Publication date of the FIRST estimates for the 3rd quarter 2020
USA: 10-29
Euro Zone: 10-30.
It is pretty difficult to obtain the actual numbers behind the propaganda headlines, but here we are:
year-to-date GDP change (2020q3 vs 2019q4) :
USA: -3.48% [data is from http://www.bea.gov]
France: -4.07% [data is not from a government website]
Germany: -4.82% [data is from http://www.destatis.de]
Compare the numbers above with propaganda headlines, i.e.
(3rd quarter over 2nd quarter) to the FOURTH power
(pretty amusing to me, why not to the tenth power?):
US: +33.1%
France: +18.2%
Germany: +8.2%
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ElkQ8WDWkAErdOa?format=png
My little calculation was correct:
“the Eurozone economy is now operating around 4% below its output in the last quarter of 2019 with its large economies broadly following the same pattern. By comparison, in China economic output is about 3% higher”
https://www.pwc.co.uk/press-room/press-releases/pwc-comments-on-gdp-data-for-the-eurozone.html
I don’t much talk about Poland because I don’t have enough information about it, though my suspicions are negative. I am an expert on Soros and Orbán – well, more than most of you.
“The ultra-conservative PiS politicians ignore this trend toward secularization”
What does ultra-conservative mean? That doesn’t describe Trump or Orban (coming from polar opposites. Trump is somewhat on the right and Orbán is fundamentally extreme left.).
Far-right football hooligans have physically attacked peaceful women, and the government has threatened to call out the military police against the women. – You mean Antifa? (ha, ha – far let, you mean.). Fascists are leftists, like commies.
American billionaire George Soros – I’d feel more comfortable if you put him in the Hungarian-atheist group.
Do we really need this daily stupidity of extreme left Orbán? As soon as someone dares not to agree with this man, who is even unable to communicate with those he wants to convince (being ignorant anuses for those that didn’t agree, for me shitting in my pants, because I dare to describe Trump as rightwing extremist). Repeating stupidity neither makes it intelligent, nor true and his behaviour is far from just hard hitting arguments.
Real arguments I could not read from Dias yet, childish shit could. It’s amazing when someone doesn’t realize that the written shit is not smart and often fits the writer best.
But …. he is an expert on Soros and Orbán, he is the only smart here! No, not my opinion about Dias, but Dias about Dias. A very stable genius, just as his idol.
Re this Geneva convention:
If it weren’t so sad it would be funny – at least it shows where the PISsers, Fidesz and the US repugs really stand!
Most of the signatories are among the 20 worst countries to be a woman according to the Women, Peace and Security Index established by Georgetown University.
None of the top twenty countries on the Georgetown index – with the exception of the US (ranked 19th) – has signed the declaration.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/us-trump-administration-signs-anti-abortion-declaration
I’m sure the (male?) representatives had a good time in Geneva – the city is famous for its beautiful women, I really liked staying there on business trips.
And the food! 🙂 🙂
OT Today the WP writes
Biden’s margin in the battleground states of Wisconsin and Michigan is nine points. It is seven points in Pennsylvania, five in Arizona and one in Florida. https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/2020/10/29/trump-biden-live-updates/
I really hope these numbers are true – and all these votes will be counted.
Finally sleeping calmly again after four exhausting years would be good. If not we have to watch the US destroying itself.
USA destroying itself would be bad enough, but that Dump has the possibility to destroy the entire world.
I can see 4-month waves in the global daily infection rates
The crest of the wave is followed by a month-long stagnation period, then by another 3-month long, higher wave.
1st crest: April 10, daily infection: 77K
2nd crest: August 14, daily infection: 265K
3rd crest: mid December, daily infection: 900K ??
Since large-scale vaccination will not start until late Spring 2021,
expect a huge December 2020 top and enormous April 2021 top.
CNN reported that the counties where tump rallies were held showed increases of infection rates much higher than those of the respective states
Proving again that the worst virus is always that of the human kind.
In Hungary, soccer-crazy Orban’s matches serve as superspreader events.
September 24 Bayern – Sevilla in Budapest 20,000 people in the stadium,
October 4. FTC-Felcsut, 8800
October 24: FTC- Ujpest, 15800 people
October 28: FTC- Dinamo Kiev, 6500 people
November 4: FTC-Juventus
December 2: FTC-Barcelona
In that case, isn’t the pro-abortion protesters in Poland a gigantic infection risk? Fancy that, womens’ rights being a disease spreader..
rmw, you really are an idiot.
Look at that picture in Eva’s article and compare that with a Trump rally eg.
See any difference?
PS:
And learn some English or even better go back to a site in your home language!
Like how Poland’s Covid infection rate is rising at the same time with the protests?
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/polands-daily-covid-19-cases-could-rise-to-20000-this-week-govt
Covid infections are rising everywhere – would you like to compare the numbers?
Then Poland’s numbers will rise with the protests, won’t it.
I wonder when something similar will happen in Hungary:
In Czechia the doctors association called for docs and nurses working abroad to return – we need you!
At least 20% of the people studying medicine have left for greener pastures, mainly DACH and the UK.But just a few came back …
Around 40% of the docs working in Czechia are at least 60 years old! So of course their risk is also greater.
The same goes for Slovakia where more than 10 000 docs and nurses have Covid already.
The situation in Hungary is similar obviously.
This is a picture of the bosses of those “Geneva states against abortion”:
https://www.facebook.com/patent.egyesulet.ngo/photos/3172562142873342
No comment necessary.
They have only the best from chain saw killer to fully automatic stamp pad.
Most of these countries are going from bad to worse, especially Belarus and Indonesia. But I hope people don’t dismiss countries like Burkina Faso and Senegal. I stridently disagree with their socially conservative positions, but they are often moving in the right direction. It wasn’t that long ago that Senegal got rid of female genital mutilation, and Gambia just got rid of an entrenched dictator. And pretty much all of Africa is doing a better job of fighting Covid than Europe or the Americas. (You could consider Alpha Condé of Guinea as West Africa’s current Lukashenko, but despite his attempts to hold on to power, he’s NOT on the pathetic list of anti-abortion presidents.)
I stand with the folks fighting Orbán, but please let’s rise above lumping together all Black and brown people as corrupt political bosses.
I didn’t understand that what are you talking about? wolfi did not say anything about black and brown …
My comment and the quoted article from the Guardian are not about the people but about their governments/ruling classes.
However in many of these countries the situation of women is not so good – just start with Hungary (which is much worse than Poland!) if you look here:
https://giwps.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/WPS-Index-2019-20-Report.pdf
The reasons for this?
Raulism
It is a fact that few poor countries have democratic political systems, corruption and strife are much more frequent there, dare I say, prevalent.
Democracy is an expensive system to run although it produces good returns.
Btw To understand politics read Dictators Handbook not John Rawls.
I find it hilarious that Orbán claims to represent European values, when he seems to be importing a position that is popular in West African Muslim countries.
But more importantly, I am just loving the activism of the Budapest women. It’s inspiring!
Little bit of reality, Hungary 2020.
The status of the flu shots.
Every year, I get a flu shot in the fall. Free of charge, because I am “high risk”.
Orban announced in September that EVERYBODY can get it for free this year, in order to mitigate the effects of parallel corona & flu infections, thus saving lots of life.
Ten days ago, he publicly received the injection.
https://hvg.hu/itthon/20201020_orban_oltas
My family doctor just told me that Orban’s ministry had taken away half of the flu shots he already had at hand – so he did not think he can give me an influenza injection this year, not even for money.
Orbán is not a person who cares. He has to promote the Hungarian culture.
Last year I was entitled by lifetime and there wasn’t any problem. This year everybody is entitled and, well, I seem to be everybody, since everybody is prevented to get the vaccination. Croatia is nearby, but even if they have enough shots to treat someone from Hungary, I’d need to get 10 days locked-up, just because I want to use what I am entitled to….
influenza virus size: 80-120 nm
corona virus size: 60-140 nm
The most difficult particle size to trap with masks is 300 nm.
FFP2=N95 [FFP3= N99] masks are supposed to capture 94%-95% [99%] of them.
The bigger particles are caught by the mesh of the mask,
while the smaller particles can fly only in zig-zag patterns, so the electrostatic charge good new masks are equipped with will capture them.
Masks labeled NR=non reusable are guaranteed to keep their electrostatic charge for 8 hours of continuous use, while R= reusable masks for 3×8 hours or more.
https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/what-is-pm0-3-why-important/
https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/
Don’t forget the virus can travel only on droplets which are a scale larger, ie. from 1-200 microns.
Productions plants of Sanofi-Pasteur influenza vaccines:
Trivalent: Val de Reuil [Eure, France], Ocoyoayac Mexico, Shenzhen China
Quadrivalent: Val de Reuil [Eure, France], Swiftwater [PA, USA], Pearl River [NY, USA]
Hungary has 1.3 million trivalent “3Fluart” and 0.1 million quadrivalent “Vaxigrip Tetra” for 9.7 million people.
The Orban government had 5 months to act, but they forgot to procure more vaccines.
Hungarian wholesalers are not able to get more vaccines from Europe at this moment.
https://24.hu/kozelet/2020/10/29/influenzaoltas-koronavirus-fluart-waxigrip-patika-import/
In the 11/12th district in Buda we still can’t get any flu vaccine, been three weeks of this messy lying match now…
The regime talks about getting covid vaccine from the EU, which btw plans to distribute it proportionally so they every country gets some. These silly Europeans don’t know “Germany First” or “France or …. they don’t have the luck to be ruled by stable carpathian geniuses who would close their borders and solve all problems nationally … the way it happens here (if u know what I mean).
Abortion is an unending discourse. Also it is very boring. Where you draw the line has been well rehearsed and discussed for decades.
If a woman wants one the place she lives will determine the parameters. Since it is a trade off between a woman wanting to be rid of her unborn child and the rights of the unborn child it is difficult to see any end to the debate in sight. I would avoid this topic if you are interested in finding a topic for serious discussion. Those who believe in motherhood will always be disappointed by women wanting to destroy the life they were created to generate, nourish and protect.
I never saw so many women on the streets of Poland for such a boring topic.
The fact that many don’t like an outcome does not make either the topic or the discourse interesting. Both are repetitive and predictable. Since the ultimate opposing aims are irreconcilable there will from time to time be flashpoints. One does not have to be a Christian fanatic to have concerns about both extremes.How the authorities deal with expressions of dissent might be fascinating.
Wolfi,
Whether “created” is the right word to use changes little. Whichever way “motherhood” features as part of human life and how it comes about its description would include the generation, the nourishment and the protectIon of children. Even to an atheist like you and me, that is probably beyond dispute. That is why many would be dismayed by actual or potential mothers marching in protest against restrictions on their ability to destroy their unborn children. But, sadly, you are not dismayed.
So you would force a woman to raise the product of her rape or a child which will not make it by its second year or will be helpless, unable to talk etc ?
Reminds me of stories from old Rome where there was an alternative – either the emperor’s wife will live or the foetus.
Your decision would be obvious …
PS:
Are you also a fan of the death penalty like many “lifers”?
And women who can’t bear children are unnecessary too, a creation error?
Wolfi, you are a true idiot and probably a bigot. You certainly don’t not read what is written, not for the first time, because to do so and to gain knowledge might stand in the way of sounding off your virtue signalling nonsense.
What I actually wrote was that some might be disappointed or dismayed by actual and potential mothers protesting at restrictions being imposed on their ability to destroy their unborn children. I would not take part in the debate on what those restrictions should be and neither would I want to mix in with enforcing any sanctions on those who want to participate.
In your country and in mine many thousands of victims of Red Army rape brought into the world and brought up with love the fruits of those crimes. It is an individual decision as is whether to destroy a disabled embryo.
So, Aida, how should I treat someone who claims
“Those who believe in motherhood will always be disappointed by women wanting to destroy the life they were created to generate, nourish and protect.”
Your use of words like believe, creation etc seems really strange to me.
“an individual decision” is not possible under some laws, that’s the problem.
I don’t complain of any treatment: i regret you do not read what is written. I strongly deprecate the nonsense you spew as a result.
You lack the intellectual honesty to take head on the argument you face and deflect it as my old Bolshevik adverseries have always done.
I have dealt with “creation” Read it. “Believe” is quite a well know motivator.
What on earth does WW2 have to do with anything???
Michael, WW2 has nothing to do with it. Example of how women raped by the soldiers of the Red Army dealt with the fruits of the crime. You should read what is written or have joined the Wolfi school of shouters?
Shouters?
For the last time, you wrote:
“the life they were created to generate, nourish and protect”
So is this your idea of what women are meant to do?
And who created women?
For the last time I repeat:
Whether “created” is the right word to use changes little. Whichever way “motherhood” features as part of human life and how it comes about its description would include the generation, the nourishment and the protectIon of children. Even to an atheist like you and me, that is probably beyond dispute. That is why many would be dismayed by actual or potential mothers marching in protest against restrictions on their ability to destroy their unborn children. But, sadly, you are not dismayed.”
One of the feminine functions, probably the most defining one is motherhood. Any woman is free to reject it, however the vast majority don’t.
i am not a creationist as explained before. You should pay more attention to what I write.
What I don’t understand is the motivation of those who are dismayed by the sight of actual or potential mothers marching. There are some who don’t want to have physically and mentally disabled children and don’t want the state decide how many children they will have, healthy or not. The “dismayed ones” have no say in the matter.
Well, Eva, it is perhaps not very complicated. Tens of thousands of women march in protest. Others who don’t may or may not agree with them. Those who don’t will have started with a different set of beliefs. Since we do not all have to share all the same beliefs they are entitled to theirs as you are entitled to yours. It is not a question of motivation, just as in your case, it is a matter of belief. I tried to point out that not everyone shares the same view of “motherhood”. Those who don’t share yours women demonstrating for this cause may, understandably, be dismayed. The topic of termination of pregnancy by artificial means is controversial. In the practical world it will only be workable through compromise. You say the “dismayed ones” have no say in the matter, but it seems that in Poland they do. It is in fact a political question which is resolved as most political questions and there are some winners and some losers. You believe there is only one legitimate answer so sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Since I don’t support either outcome at the expense of the other I win… Read more »
One thing is having religious convictions – Another is pulling them down over the heads of a country of 40+ mio people,
Politics works on beliefs. Also on self interest. Also on joint action. People who don’t share your political aims have a similar right to express theirs. You may laugh at them or even try to shout them down. Eventually the winner is the one who wins the political process.
And when, as a consequence of politics based on “beliefs”, the women lose their right to control their reproductive functions, it is a minor concern?
Aren’t rights beliefs themselves?
If you disagree, well what do you say when as I pointed out above, Muslim leader Mahathir says Muslims have the right to kill millions of French people…
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/muslims-france-malaysian-pm-mahathir-mohamad-macron-charlie-hebdo-b1424838.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/30/mahathir-mohamads-abhorrent-comments-on-nice-terrorist-attack-condemned-by-australian-pm
“Rights” when used colloquially it is a political and propaganda tool. “Rights“ in Law exists only where defined and normally there would be a corresponding duty.
The Muslim leaders quoted are simply expressing a disgusting but not untypical view that publishing the drawings of a prophet deserved condemnation and murder, and those who carry out the murders those who publish it don’t.
I guess you only have boring “concerns”
Not understood
Sorry for being too complicated. Want me to explain?
Please
Aida: “Abortion is an unending discourse. Also it is very boring. Where you draw the line has been well rehearsed and discussed for decades.”
Jan: “I never saw so many women on the streets of Poland for such a boring topic.”
Aida: ” One does not have to be a Christian fanatic to have concerns about both extremes.How the authorities deal with expressions of dissent might be fascinating.”
Jan: “I guess you only have boring “concerns””
Get it ?
This one is a very tedious topic. I now wish I had kept out of it. But, we are where we are. Termination by artificial means aka “abortion” has always been and must always be regulated by the state. There are so many reasons that it would take too long to list them. Briefly, but not exclusively, the notion taken up by some, that each woman can self regulate and have abortions on demand at any stage of pregnancy has only to be stated for its absurdity to be apparent. The other extreme is total prohibition which is equally absurd and impossible to implement. There is therefore a set of rules that is needed to mitigate the absurdity of either extreme. As far as the Polish fiasco is concerned the puppet judges of the Constitutional Tribunal came arrived at an interpretation of the Constitution of Poland which caused a storm because it is too restrictive. The politicians can and will produce a further version that will restore calm. The specific point appears to be the destruction of those embryos which are so deformed or disabled that they could not survive for long once they left the womb. I have caused… Read more »
Aida, I’m still witing for an explanation of your “women were created to bear children …” or something similar that you wrote.
You are a tedious oaf. Too indolent to do your homework and to check up on your references. To assist you, the expression you are looking for was “created to generate, nourish and to protect”
I have answered you stupid question twice. Here are the references. Look them up.
i fear that it is too late to persuade/teach you how to conduct an online discussion.
Aida, you shouldn’t use expressions like “women were created to …” and “belief” so often.
I rest my case …
Why not?
Ok, I think I understand your position. Nevertheless I think one can not compare post WW2 situations where the women who gave birth to children that were the result of rape decided to raise these children with love. But would have preferred an abortion if it would have been available.
On the moment abortion numbers decline worldwide because women are more and more informed how to avoid unwelcome pregnancies.
I do not know of any woman who is a serial killer of her embryos or fetuses because she can not connect copulation with pregnancy, and continues to sleep with man without taking precautions.
In other words abortion is not a hobby.
I agree with you that there should be rules.
The rules Poland will impose can not be taken back because the ruling politicians gave it out of hands to the highest court.
I guess you find the topic boring because everyone already has an opinion. But if one is concerned with this topic it is not boring in my opinion.
What “dissent” are you talking about????
Poland is a democracy in the EU and people have a fundamental right to protest and demonstrate.
Aida, now you’re talking:
“women wanting to destroy the life they were created to generate, nourish and protect.”
So you’re a creationist too?
Which god/creator do you believe in?
I just read an article about the Polish situation in Népszava. The situation sounds very serious.
It surprised me to no end that unlike the Hungarian Catholic Church, the Polish Church’s income comes from offerings at the church. Now that few people attend church because of the pandemic their income has dwindled.
The Polish prelates should learn a few tricks from their Hungarian colleagues. There money is pouring in from the state, i.e. those Hungarian taxpayers who don’t attend church.
https://nepszava.hu/3097490_szazezrek-vonulnak-az-utcan-az-abortusztorveny-miatt
Botond Botos says on his tumblr blog that according to local polls PiS went from 40 to 31 in a week which is of course a gigantic drop.
I quoted Kandar’s latest. I don’t know where Botond got his figures. Most likely from a different poll. Both show incredible, comparable drop.
A pollster named CBOS.
Don’t worry. Polish church recieves great amount of many from Polish State. It’s payment for its support for ruling party.
I have understood that the Catholic Church in Poland also holds large shares in the commercial tv and internet media.
Is that correct?
No it’s not Spain in Franco period. At least not yet. The chuch (one of the religious orders) has national TV “TV Trwam” and radio called “Radio Maryja” and it’s the the haters voice in polish homes. Also the church has nationwide regional radio “Radio Plus”. Also has a few hours of programs everyday in state-owned TV.
So the situation is similar to Hungary with Radio Maria and TV Maria.
Every time we’re on the road and see those little billboards showing the frequency I ask my wife:
Should I switch to that frequency?
And she goes Arghhhhhh ….
Totally OT:
A few weeks after we had met and she moved into my house she told me that after our first meeting in a restaurant she was a bit unsure. Too many Germans and Austrians she had met in Hungary had so many religious symbols in their houses …
So when she came to my house she was so happy to see that there was not a single crucifix or whatever – just a large collection of Science Fiction books and Blues@Rock CDs …
And she’s a fan too! 🙂 🙂
What a strange coincidence!
And we were both already over 60 years old when we were “coupled”.
Wolfi you wrote about Poland being in situation of Germany 60 years ago and I completely agree. Soviet dominance era was like freezer that frozen all political, economical and social changes in Poland. Now we are see how deep social changes happened in Poland in last 30 years.
On abortion..
Moses in Exodus 21:22:
“When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined”
“But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life”
Some opinions on abortion from the Talmud:
R. Hisda in Yevamot 69b:10
“until 40 days from conception the fetus is merely water. It is not yet considered a living being.”
R. Hisda in Sanhedrin 72b:14
“If a woman was giving birth and her life was being endangered by the fetus, the life of the fetus may be sacrificed in order to save the mother. But once his head has emerged during the birthing process, he may not be harmed in order to save the mother”
The Jewish quote is a great illustration of the problems bypassed by the use of Cesarean section.
Tnx for the info. Seems they were pretty realistic and not so stupid (as the zealots from both ends of the debate now).
Michael the Caesarian btw doesn’t change the rule, the head emerges just the same.
Wrong translation on Exodus, it is not miscarriage but premature birth:
https://answersingenesis.org/sanctity-of-life/abortion/does-the-bible-condone-abortion/
Thank your for your post Eva. The truth is that those protests with every passing day have more political agenda in the sense that they are more against ruling party as a whole. Kaczyński grows uneasy and certainly considers different options to stop those protests. Already nationalists and soccer hooligans are attacking the protesters. Police in time of pandemic seems too weak force to contain the movement. Unfortunately state of emergency and using of the military is one of the options that Kaczyński certainly considers if protests won’t wane in the coming weeks.
It is probably to late to end the mess peacefully.
Is Kaczyński history?
Palace revolt in the near future?
Will the party split?
Is the Catholic Church a second loser?
1) Protest will probably burn out by itself. But further rule of Law and Order will be marked by social unrest.
2) Palace revolt is very difficult when all party is build around charismatic leader with unlimited power inside the party. Rules of the party makes removing Kaczyński impossible in legal way.
3) In fact we have a ruling coaltion in Poland, so theoretically can always desintegrate.
4) It terrible blow for catholic church, can be fatal in longer term.
Unbelievable!
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I have subscribed to their newsletter, very good infos
A detailed and very disturbing article on what’s happening in Poland right now – sorry, only in German:
https://www.pressenza.com/de/2020/11/polen-die-revolution-ist-eine-frau/
Side thought. Just to quote from the Geneva Consensus document for a moment. The signatories
Not 100% sure but I *think* this is a dig at perceived past liberal ‘Judicial Activism’ in the American context (Roe v Wade). IE the changing of law in this area via Judicial rather than Legislative (in the sense of parliamentary) process to achieve socially progressive ends. If so the PiS use of a constitutional tribunal to circumvent it lack of a majority in the upper house of the Polish parliament is acutely ironic.
Quoting from the HS post for a moment
“The current abortion law was born in 1993.”
If this is a deliberate pun I am not sure that it is in the very best possible taste…